Why were your training speed imrovements you report not reflected in your race results.

There are several possibilities but this is the most likely, I think.

When you went back to your regular cranks and got into a race environment you didn't ride in the PC fashion, probably bringing your cadence way above what you can do on the PC's. This had to make you way less efficient and tire your legs which was reflected in your slower runs.

What do you think?

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

adding to that, i wonder about the tri bike vs training bike position. did you ever PC ride on the tri bike? i will hazard to guess that you are too low, or "aggresive" on the tri bike to PC in the aero postion. i would suggest you put the PC's on the tri bike and get it configured so that you can PC on it easily. then mimic that position on the trainer ( PC ) bike.

if you cannot PC on the tri bike in the aero position the effect of PC's in training to racing is lost to a large degree, i believe.

Did you notice your medial quads getting more tired than usual when on regular cranks? I did at first, and that area of my leg was what seemed to be the limiting factor in my speed on regular cranks, just as much as hip flexors were my limiting factor on PCs. So, I rode my TT setup once a week to make sure I kept that area adapted to the requirements of regular cranks and racing in a TT position.

It seems that you weren't riding much, on your regular TT bike with the setup that you race on. Also, it's easy to think you'll be able to ride at your "Pre-PC Normal" rpms when you get on regular cranks, but that's not the way it works...if you train at lower rpms on PCs, you'd better stick with the lower rpms during the race. Judging from your run speed, I'd say you are a lower rpmer anyway...75-80 is what I'd guess....were you trying to race at higher rpms than this, but training at these rpms on PCs?

Other than that, I don't see anything else that really stands out, but that's a big one. What are/were your rpms in training and racing?

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Thanks for the responses. Most of my pc rides were around 85rpm. My first race was very hilly so I was rarely over 90rpm. In the 1/2 I was about pc cadence maybe a tad higher. In the sprint I made a concious effort to spin higher and ended up with a better run that I had been.Ktalon was right I did feel weakness in my medial quads and cramped in those muscles in my first race, that was why I continued to train with my normal cranks. I also believe TTN is right my two setups are different but I am mechanicaly challeged so I can't swap them back and forth. I have moved my seat forward as much as possible on my pc bike, what else can I do?

The main reason I bought pc's was too help my run and it has only improved(in training)about 10 seconds a mile. Everybody else seemed to improve drasticaly on the run, I'm I missing something there?

Joe

you wrote "The main reason I bought pc's was too help my run and it has only improved(in training)about 10 seconds a mile. Everybody else seemed to improve drasticaly on the run, I'm I missing something there? "

Well, yeah, you're missing the big run improvement! Are you a cross country skiier? If so, maybe your hip flexors were already developed more than most of us. I'm running an average of only 8-10 miles a week and still have at least 1 minute/mile better speed on the run since PCing. Maybe you are just one that PCs don't help as much as some of us...I don't know!

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

I am not a runner but am curious as to how it improves the running, does it give longer strides
or speed up the running cadence?

I think you just don't have enough time on them yet. You are only riding them 3 times a week and find 4 impossible to do. You must be one of these people on the far end of the bell curve. Your muscles just haven't adapted yet. Then, when you started to feel cramping you stayed with regular cranks, which only slowed their progress.

Another thing, even riding at a cadence only 5 per minute over your PC cadence is a big deal over an hour, requiring 300 more repetitions at a much higher effort.

Further, you have improved 10 seconds per mile. I take it you are not running 6 minute miles now (where 10 seconds per mile would be huge) but are a more modest runner and expected more. I think it will come if you will get back on them and get your PC endurance up. When you get to the point where you can ride these all the time without feeling wasted after any ride you should be seeing more run and bike improvement. Stay with them and I think it will come. I think you are on the slow end of the bell curve, partly because you are using them less than most other users.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Perfection,

No one knows exactly what they are doing to improve running speed. There are two theories:

1 Runners who get on them have uniformely reported that they think the reason is they encourage better running form (knee lift and heal kick)

2. Others think it has to do with training muscles necessary to fast running, allowing the runner to run "harder" without going anaerobic.

It is probably a combination of the two but needs to be studied by someone to know for sure.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Cadence. Especially when I get tired. My legs work more like pistons now when I run...more up-and-down motion rather than forward and back motion. Watch people as they run, when they tire, their cadence drops. For a while, they attempt to maintain speed by increasing their stride length, but, that doesn't work for long. Now, my cadence starts higher and stays higher, and I'm faster.

I would think this running style would also help prevent some lower back stress that occurs when one overstrides...your lower back has to twist more when overstriding. On the other hand, the more piston-like running can lead to more lower leg stresses....I'll take the lower leg stress over low-back stress any day. I get around the lower leg problems by only running an average of about 8 miles a week, though. I'm thoroughly amazed that I can run so much faster now in endurance runs on such meager mileage. I never have lower leg/foot pain at this low mileage. I think I might be able to gradually increase the mileage over a year and get even faster without injury...but, I don't know for certain.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

[reply]

Yes, that makes very good sense.

Thanks.

Not enough time yet? He's been on them since December - thats over 8 months and progressed to 3-4 hr outdoor rides - a 1 hour LT ride, a 90 minute and a 3-4 hour long - thats 5 1/2-6 1/2 hours/week - probably 100+ miles/week.

How much do you need to ride them? This seems like it should be enough - esp. for the run benefits (website says something like 2 weeks to start see improvement....).

I'm not trying to attack you/product - am actually quite curious to try them and am asking for them for my B-day in November but I was planning on doing what this poster did. I live in snow - so I was planning on riding a CT with them for a few months - transfer to outdoor rides. I doubt I'll ride over 100 miles/week. Is it enough?

Clearly not everything works for everybody and this is only 1 person's experience. If I can manage to get a pair - I'll post my progress. I'm hoping to be more like yaquicarbo in my experience.....

How much do you need to ride them? How about cadences? I like to race 100+rpm.

Yaquicarbo - can you elaborate on the medial quad issues. I was under the impression you were supposed to ride PC's exclusively, yet it sounds like you ride your TT bike also. I assume your PC's are on your training bike and you ride your Yaqui 1x/week and race off PC's. Did you do this after your period of adaption/exclusive PC riding?

Thanks -

While it seems like it would be plenty of time, I agree, he also reported that he is still unable to ride them even 4 days a week without getting overly fatigued. Most people can get to riding them 5 or 6 days or week without being overly fatigued in 4-6 WEEKS! I am not sure why his adaption seems to be so much slower than average. We are all just throwing out ideas here in public without any real data to help us figure it out. If he comes back and gives more data after hearing these ideas maybe we can be more specific. However, it seems clear to me that he is not as "dedicated" to the sport as many of my early users (which is probably good for his family) so that may be all there is to it. There seems to be quite a bit of variation in adaptability from those like ttn to those like xshuffler. The few people who have sent the cranks back for refund in the 60 day period seem to be mostly people who report being unable to adapt to them in that period. I think I can explain the early outliers like ttn (XC skiing background?) but I cannot explain these late outliers, at least yet. Met a couple at one of the recent races who have had trouble getting the mileage up despite reported exclusiveuse. They even had XC skiing background. Made no sense to me. The more I hear about this the better I will come to understand it, hopefully.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

[reply][reply]
While it seems like it would be plenty of time, I agree, he also reported that he is still unable to ride them even 4 days a week without getting overly fatigued. Most people can get to riding them 5 or 6 days or week without being overly fatigued in 4-6 WEEKS! I am not sure why his adaption seems to be so much slower than average. We are all just throwing out ideas here in public without any real data to help us figure it out. If he comes back and gives more data after hearing these ideas maybe we can be more specific. However, it seems clear to me that he is not as "dedicated" to the sport as many of my early users (which is probably good for his family) so that may be all there is to it. There seems to be quite a bit of variation in adaptability from those like ttn to those like xshuffler. The few people who have sent the cranks back for refund in the 60 day period seem to be mostly people who report being unable to adapt to them in that period. I think I can explain the early outliers like ttn (XC skiing background?) but I cannot explain these late outliers, at least yet. Met a couple at one of the recent races who have had trouble getting the mileage up despite reported exclusiveuse. They even had XC skiing background. Made no sense to me. The more I hear about this the better I will come to understand it, hopefully. [/reply]


I would agree Frank, I took up cycling at aged 42
after giving up the cigs. and did not even know what
to do with my knees, I had to waste a lot of time
before I eventually arrived at the round pedaling
style. since then I progressed to Anquetil's technique.
If only your cranks had been around at that time , it
could have saved a lot of wasted research. Pedaling
like running is as much mental as physical and unless you are giving it all your concentration, you
will end up a failure. Typical example is our own
Sonia o' Sullivan.


N Crowley.

I stayed on PCs exclusively (I think, I'll have to go back and read my log to be certain) for a couple of months. When I went back to regular cranks, the medial quads felt a little weak...I don't know if it was because on regular cranks I was getting lazy with my hip flexors (which would demand your quads push a little harder in order to lift the rising foot), or if I really lost some strength there, or a combination. Anyway, it didn't take but about 5 rides interspersed over a few weeks time until I didn't feel that weakness in the medial quads.

Now that I've been on PCs for almost 9 months, I ride my TT bike with regular cranks about 5-10% of the time. I rode 55 Saturday and 30 today on PCs...I'll ride 20 on Wednesday on my TT bike, and once again on Saturday before a 1/2 Ironman on Sunday..I haven't been on my TT bike except for races or tuneups in the past month. I don't feel like I have to ride on my TT bike very often to be comfortable and fast (fast is a relative term...I'm certainly no lightning bolt, but I have had the fastest bike twice this year inmy AG), and I've adapted on PCs well enough to be able to cook my medial quads before my hip flexors give up....I couldn't do that at first, that is why I think I noticed some medial quad loss of strength 7 months ago. Not a problem any more.

I came from a road racing background, and used to pedal at 105-110, until a coach told me to drop the cadence during a club TT that he saw...he was right, I was faster in the low 90s, but it hurt my knees some. After getting PCs, I find I am fastest at 80-85 rpms, and my knees no longer hurt. Road racing encourages faster rpms in order to keep your legs fresh to catch jumps and to sprint at the end, but TTing is a different animal for me. Since my run cadence is about 80-85, this riding cadence fits me just right. If you have a run cadence of 90, I'd guess 90 would be your best place to start testing your riding cadence. If your run cadence is 80, start testing at 80.

I'm just an experiment of one, also. I've never heard of someone that didn't benefit on the run fairly quickly and dramatically until this case. This includes a local guru that coaches almost 200 athletes, and has 30-plus on PCs, and reported that every PC rider has PR's in their running races/splits (from the 30 minute 5kers to the mid-teen 5kers), which is definitely not the case with his non-PCers. This case just shows that mileage may vary.

The great thing about PCing is this...you can try them yourself for 60 days...if you see the benefit, keep them, if you don't...send them back.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

First of all, I think I did adapt to the pc's ok. I was able to ride to ride 31/2 hours. Although the wheels did begin to come off at about 21/2. Last year when training for IM, I couldn't really get that 4th ride in either. I did however find the pc's more of a strain in my CNS. So while my run gains of 10 secs per mile came rather quickly I did hit a wall in June and became a bit overtrained. The other thing I did was change to more of a POSE style of running which seems to closely mimick pc'ing. It was painful to be doing both but very thing seemed too smooth itself out and I was waiting for big gains but they never happend. I thought that I would be the ideal canidate for the run improving, I was a good runner along time ago(sprinter) and started back about 5 years ago and have been less then medicore.

Back on the pc's tomorrow, cutting back long ride to 2hrs, cut back 2hr run to 75 min. Add a 4th ride and see what happens in my last tri in three weeks.

ps. I would buy pc's again if I had the choice, I am a better runner and cyclyst I have just fallen short of expectations.

xshuffler. yeah man it does sound as if you would have been an ideal candidate. dunno, brother. odd. anyway, carry on! :) i would suggest you do try those PC's on the tri-bike, tho - just to be sure you are riding the tri-bike PC fashion or even ABLE to do so. then, endeavor to ride in that style on the regular cranks on that bike. also, think about continuing to push the PC envelope by spinning more, or going lower, or both. always another challenge with the PC's, as ya know. i bet it will come. interesting post.

I think over training is another explanation. Changing to "pose" could be another explanation and could exacerbate over training although you are not the first to think PC's and pose go together naturally.

If you were to contact me before PC's I would have put you as an ideal candidate. I still think you are but your "slow" progress is hard to explain based upon the experience of most. It is just going to take a little more time but I think you will eventually be putting forth the same numbers as everyone else. If not, it is ok to come back and let everyone know or to let us try to figure it out again.

If you are still interested in primarily increasing your run over the bike I think I would tell you to concentrate on higher sustained cadences on the bike. I think that will help it come a little faster.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

The POSE running technique and PC riding seem to go hand-in-hand to me. The only thing that really stands out is that your mileage is very high. I think you're overtrained.

I do some 3-4 hour rides on PC's once or twice a month, but I don't ever run more than 1 hour...and then, not more than a couple of times a month. And I don't do the long rides and runs back to back. On a typical week, I'll ride 2-4 times for 20-30 miles and run twice for 4 miles each. Every once in a while I get a 50-65 mile ride in, and the same with an 8 mile run. I'm not talking about training for a living here. I'd say I do less mileage than many...but I get good results.

I'm in my mid 40's, too, and we older guys tend to need a bit more recovery. I'm only averaging running about 8 miles/week...I depend on the PCing to keep my running muscles in shape, and it works for me. I don't do IM's, so I know you need to put in more time working out than I do, but, maybe you're not recovering well at your current workload? If that is the case, I'd drop that run to an hour or less, and stay on the PCs. With runs longer than an hour, I'm afraid you're teaching yourself to slog along, PLUS beating up your legs along the way.

In fact, if these overtraining ideas seem to make sense to you, I'd cut my runs to 30 minutes, and cut my biking to an hour for a week. I'd do one interval session during the bike, and one during the run. Keep your workout times down. The second week, one day I'd ride 20% longer than my race distance at a moderately-easy pace, and run 20% shorter than my race distance at a moderately-hard pace. The last weekend before the race, I'd do a "gentle" brick workout. Resist the urge to push even if you feel good. 4-5 days out from the race, I'd do a short brick, just faster than race-pace. Anything else you do should be on the bike or in the water, no running. Another alternative to this advice is to stop all working out for a week, then ease back into it next week...still, I'd drop the long slog run and replace it with something short and quick. Of course, another idea is to ignore all this advice!

By this time in a taper, I'd feel awful. I'd feel sluggish and as if I can't possibly race well. But, it works for me...come race day, I've been pleasantly surprised at every race this year. Let us know what you choose to do, and how your race turns out. It seems to me that something is amiss.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

x -

Two thoughts, for what they are worth.

My improvement on both the bike and run took off dramatically after I noticed something I was doing while riding the PCs that I was not doing on regular cranks. On order to get my legs over the top I was flaring my knees out while lifting. This was quite unlike my normal pedal stroke. It caused me to adjust my setup and to watch _how_ I raised those pedals very closely. After a little while, I stopped kicking those legs out and had a more "normal" stroke. Perhaps you are doing something similar. I don't believe I was actually adapted until I stopped this.

Secondly, my running improvement seems to be directly related to cadence on the PCs. Probably that's because I turn over so slowly during my run. If you are in a similar position I would recommend sets of super-spins on the PCs -- maybe 3x2min @ 110+ and build to as long (or as fast!) as you can. Once they get easy, pop off the bike for a few strides after your set to take the new cadence for a test drive. :-)

Good luck,
matt

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"When I cleaned up my diction, I had nothing left to say" -- Van Morrison

I'll make some of the adjustments and report back. Thanks for all the help.

Joe