That is funny you say that Tom. After she just got paid out the Wazoo for her biography and the hype behind her "rescue". Yeah I think a couple of million dollars would help me keep it "real". LOL

FIRELUV

Might want to check your facts boss. She turned down several million dollars. Her book deal is likely to net her low seven figures if that. At the end of the day she is likely to only walk away with a few hundred thousand dollars. Is it worth losing her friends and the trauma she suffered? I'm sure Private Lynch would give back the money and (unwanted) noteriety (which the samll town soldier doesn't wear very well anyway) to get her friends and the function of her bowels back. Your insights lack empathy. I doubt Lynch is laughing all the way to the bank.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

We had this same conversation in class today... Class being command and general staff college class here at Ft leavenworth...

Still haven't seen the source but one classmate related that: Seems what the spin machine picked up and ran with was intial reports of Iraqi transmissions regarding ambush of JL's convoy from 507th maint CO. "he" was translated incorrectly as "she" along with additional iraqi reports of blonde haired soldier fighting relentlessly, who was eventually shot and stabbed.

Transmissions mistaken for PVT Lynch were actually another blonde-headed male trooper from 507th in same convoy. He also took out a mortar team and a couple of other iraqi soldiers attacking convoy before getting shot himself.

Granted JL's experiences were traumatic, whether they deserved a Bronze Star is debatable. but if above is true said trooper should have at least a Silver Star with "V-Device" pinned on his chest

But I was glad to hear her clear the air. Proving once again, "Joe" ( the gender -neutral Joe that is) will usually tell you straight up what the real-deal is, even if it's something you don't want to hear.

AS far as SOF guys not needing to go into hospital armed to the teeth to rescue her or video tape event.

thats like asking a triathlete not to wear their HRM.....Those ops are only executed one way.... quickly and violently (see Kurt Muse rescue in Panama, any British SAS mission, Somalia missions.) And they are always always video taped. usually by multiple ground and airborne platforms.

Jim

MAJ,USA

Just went you think you've got "Joe" figured out, they do some crazy sh*t you couldn't have thought up in your wildest dreams. Something it's bad in this case it was great.

...And since we're on the topic, let's test your knowledge of military special operations. Compare and contrast the rescue of Pfc. Lynch with the Son Tay raid. Oh, you've never heard of that? Well, that may explain why you put "rescue" in quotes.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Dude, not to mention, if you where from some small-ass-coal-mine town so small its not on most maps, medically very screwed up, and someone offers you more money than anybody in that town is likely ever to see, and your freinds and family see the offer and say to you in your drug enduced haze "hell yah jessie you's need's to grab that cash girl"

what would you do?

Tom,



I was going to list Son Tay in my list but didn't think anybody would remember Bull Simmons and the boys... :-)

Your post was excellent Sir.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I hear Larry Flynt has nude pictures of Bull Simmons.

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No sidewindin bushwackin, hornswaglin, cracker croaker is gonna rouin me bishen cutter!

   

That is so bad... :-)

<<I was going to list Son Tay in my list but didn't think anybody would remember Bull Simmons and the boys... :-) >>

I'm up for a history lesson if you are willing to oblige.

And a belated "thank you" to all of the men and women of the armed forces for their service to this great nation.

Brett

   

I truely can't do it justice without writing a 1,500 essay. Link will give you a most excellent history lesson.

http://www.psywarrior.com/sontay.html

While stationed at Ft Bragg I got to meet a couple of the orginal "raiders"

to the man they are all still men to be reckoned with...



Jim

On November 20, 1970 an elite group of Special Forces and Army Rangers lead by Col. Arthur "Bull" Simons raided a suspected POW camp 23 miles from Hanoi in North Vietnam in an attempt to rescue U.S. POWs held captive in that camp. The rescue team had to fly at extreme low altitude in C-130 tranpsorts (for refueling) and large helicopters, one of which would be crashed inside the POW camp and then destroyed after other team emembers blew a hole in the compound wall to ingress the target area. The raid went perfectly, without a hitch (except for when part of the team accidentlly, momentarily landed at the wrong set of buildings). It was a nearly flawless operation in every respect.

Except there were no POWs in the camp.

Thay had been moved in previous days or weeks due to flooding from a CIA "cloud seeding" operation that produced unusual rainfall in the area and accidentally flooded the camp. As a result, no prisoners were recovered.

The operation was, however, the basis for the formation of a number of significant changes in U.S. military special operations doctrine. That operation, combined with the failed operation "Eagle Claw" (the failed Iran Hostage Rescue Mission) on April 16, 1980 was the basis for the formation of the U.S. Special Operations Aviation Regiment, The 160th SOAR, the "Nightstalkers". Additionally, Eagle Claw was one of the first operational deployments of Special Forces Operational Detachment- D (SFO-D) which is often refered to among civilians as "Delta Force".

This is relevant to the rescue of Pfc. Lynch since there was some reasonable HUMINT (human intelligence)about her location and condition but little was known about the resistance that would be encountered at the objective. Common (special operations) sense dictated they hit the target fast and hard, regardless of the level or opposition. Another little known fact of the raid to rescue Pfc. Lynch is that the operators conducting the raid used rudimentary tools and their bare hands to dig up remains of other U.S. military personnel who had been buried in the area.

It is worth mentioning that non of the operators involved in the rescue of Pfc. Lynch and the recovery of the other remains has revealed their identity, in keeping with their operational techniques, despite the ability of any of them to garner substantial publicity and financial rewards fro telling the "real story" of the rescue.

Ask yourself this: If you were a Navy SEAL or Army Delta Operator making around $30,000 a year (if that in some cases) and you knew you could approach any literary agent or publisher and say "Hey, I got a story for you..." Would you?

Some people might. Luckily, these guys won't. So, if you are in Malaysia doing Ironman Malaysia and the shit hits the fan when you're there and you wind up a hostage, then 30 days later some guys dressed in black with an American flag on their shoulder bust into your cell and pull you onto a helicopter in the middle of the night because you're an American, well, you have them to thank.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

That darned Murphy fellow...

Thanks for the link, I enjoyed the read.

Brett

she seems like a real nice kid and she'll probably never be able to do anything of what we all love to do, run, bike, etc.
A heavy price to pay and I don't even want to get into the politics.

Hope she has a happy marriage. He seems like a good guy too.

sorry to take a dump in the proverbial mess kit here...

but anyone who thinks the "Jessica Lynch story" as sold by the Pentagon and now repackaged (for profit) by proven NYT fibber Rick Bragg, is a credit to anyone involved should have their bearings repacked.

sure, simple jarheads still on the res can be fooled with line "them durned Arabic pronouns are gosh-dang hard to make out, sir" but even they should expect more from DoD than to simply parrot as fact (nay, uplifting national legend) the radio chatter of an disorganized enemy whose language (they know) they don't know.

Or have we forgotten SecState Powell's translating "errors" at the UN in Feb. as he walked us through the (garbled, Arabic) cell-phone conversations of those Iraqi evildoers (obviously) hiding their tons of WMD in trailers?

Yes, the fog of pre-war was confusing too...best not to think and just give a throaty "hoo-ah" whenever this klepto-cratic administration gins up another sad little half-reason why we're now over there but the cassus belli ain't.

Unfortunately, the cold truth is now obvious, even to many who (still) wear the uniform:

the young Americans who are giving their lives (and limbs) in Iraq tonight/tomorrow/yesterday are doing so for a (very) futile cause, just like the 240+ who sought to bring freedom to Beirut in the 80s and the 58k who stood (then fell) for freedom in Vietnam so W. could sit on his ass in Texas.

get angry and hurl abuse, if that's your scene, but on the day (June, maybe July of next year?) that this country, the one you so proudly serve, calls installing a puppet-regime in Baghdad "democracy" and executes a double-time run for the choppers, bow your head and think of those who don't get to look back on it and wonder what the hell it was all for.

You hint at an interesting contrast between Simons' raid versus Eagle Claw/Desert One, Tom. Whereas the first effectively wrote the text-book for modern (semi) MOUT take-down, the latter was the embodiment of inter-service rivalries, inadequate preparation and criminally negligent execution.

As if the pre-PVS 7 NVGs those poor guys were wearing weren't bad enough (I was raised on ANVIS 6s...now they're on 9s), the fact that the Marine 53 pilots selected for the mission were forced to fly Navy RH-53s with completely dissimilar cockpits while the AFSOC guys were relegated to Combat Talon participation mostly spoke volumes to the patch-work nature of joint special operations at the time. That the entirety of AFSOC's goggle-savvy force of Jolly Green pilots (and some of RQS's/ARRS's) were denied the opportunity to fly the missions in the name of "joint unity" was immoral to the extreme.

Fortunately, joint ops have come a long way since then, and while they're still far from perfect, I found as a Navy CSAR pilot that the AFSOC and TF160 guys were great to work with. I do inter-theater lift now in C-9s, and the strategic lift concept is faaaar from ideal.

Ironically, it was the Chief of Naval Operations and the former commanding general of Simon's mission who lead the Eagle Claw inquiry.

Anyhow, I say good on the young PFC. She survived something horrific in the extreme and her life will never be the same. I've listened to Michael Durant speak to the same sort of issues that he dealt with after surviving Somalia. As he put it, one has to assume one's life is not just a gift, but also a granted opportunity to celebrate the lives of those who died preserving it.

(LCDR) Scott

Where sir, do you get your metaphors mixed?

As a "jarhead," even as "simple" as a 1stLt A-6 BN can be, I never heard anyone use the term "on the res." Are you perhaps a little doggie who went astray? And "klepto-cratic?" That's a new one for me. I went to the KSG at Harvard, and heard lots of rhetoric spouted, but I never heard that one before. I 'spose you prefer your draft-dodgers to be the real kind, like Mr. Clinton, not those who used legal means.

"She is a credit to the military, the country, and all Americans."

She certainly is but at times of war or crisis there is always a zillion such stories. This one has just got a lot of media attention.

Let's not also forget the Iraq lawyer whose wife was a nurse in the hospital. He saw Pfc Lynch being physically mistreated in the hospital by Iraq troops and decided to do something about it by walking six miles into a combat zone to report this to the marines. This put the lives of himself and his family in considerable danger. Fortunately he and family was offered protection by the marines. IMO, this man is definately a hero and one with very admireable moral conviction.

[reply] Where sir, do you get your metaphors mixed? ... I 'spose you prefer your draft-dodgers to be the real kind, like Mr. Clinton, not those who used legal means.[/reply]

I like my metaphors shaken, not stirred..

I'm not tri-larry, but I can't resist.

In point of sober fact I prefer courageous individuals of integrity like our President-elect, Al Gore, who actually volunteered for Vietnam. W not only draft-dodged by using his father's influence (scarcely legal), but then deserted as well- was AWOL for the last year or more of his "service". Speaking as a conscript who saw out the full term of his service, this really gets my goat..

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"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

Excellent observations. The inter service activity that assisted in dooming Eagle Claw hopefully served to foster organizations such as JSOC and the 160th. Special Operations have come a long way since then. Oddly, the Israelis seemed to have it figured out at Entebbe well before the Americans, and the Germans as well at Mogadishu with the GSG9 take down of an airliner. The French GIGN have come a long way too. Eagle Claw was an enormous price to pay for getting alittle farter up the spec ops learning curve. Hopefully the lessons are being heeded. To me, with an admittedly removed perspective, it would seem they are.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Doug,



When you stick to cycling, I usually agree with you. But, I'll take on all of your erroneous statements below.

"In point of sober fact I prefer courageous individuals of integrity like our President-elect, Al Gore, (All recounts of the Florida vote--most conducted by newspapers with liberal editorial biases--have shown that George W. Bush won the election. All of the counties where the vote was in question had Democrats as Supervisors of Election, who designed the ballots, and got them approved by the Republican and Democrat Party Executive Committees of those counties. When Algore sued to overturn the lawfully certified results of the election, two out of the three courts who reviewed the two cases disagreed with him. Only the Florida Supreme Court, with 9 Democrats all appointed by Democrat Governors, agreed with Algore.) who actually volunteered for Vietnam." (At the insistence of his father, who was running for the Senate in Tennessee, a pro-war state, and couldn't afford to have a son seen to be avoiding/evading the draft. Algore was a journalist, who spent all of his time in the PAO, never venturing beyond the wire unless he was highly guarded by infantrymen.) W not only draft-dodged by using his father's influence (scarcely legal), (No evidence of that) but then deserted as well- was AWOL for the last year or more of his "service". (No evidence of that, in fact, statements to the contrary by his fellow Alabama/Texas ANG members.) Speaking as a conscript who saw out the full term of his service, this really gets my goat.. (Did Clinton get your goat, too?)

just a few observations

JL volunteered to serve her country as a soldier and protect our freedom. if it was out of patriotism or a desire to get out of the house i don't care. she deserves recognition for that.

when sent to Iraq - she went. she deserves recognition for that.

she got her ass shot at - she deserves recognition for that.

she lost friends in combat, which, from what i've heard can be more tramatic than getting shot at. she deserves recogniton for that.

so, i figure that over 90% of what happened after the ambush, to include the rescue, was beyond her control. what happened in the media while she was in the hospital was probably beyond her control and her knowledge. maybe others played games with her fate and her life but there was nothing she could have done about it anyway. she did her job, she survived. it doesn't look like she tried to lie or steal someone else's story. she seems like an honest enough person. cut the kid some slack.

and if the story gives some young women courage, gives some soldiers faith, makes a tear-jerker TV movie, so what.

as for the militay establishment's role. hey after the way the press treated them during the 'nam, you better believe they're gonna lie to them and manipulate stories. they don't want thier soldiers coming home in body bags because some reporter will lie about 'news' to get 30 seconds of fame on prime time TV news. they don't want to have to fight two fronts, one abroad one at home.

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______________________________________
"Competetive sport begins where healthy sport ends"

As always, I'm impressed by the impassioned and intelligent debate here. I'm surprised no one's mentioned the case of Shoshana Johnson. Here's a little background:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...23&notFound=true

African-American single mother, shot through both legs, held prisioner 22 days. This raises a lot of issues for me.

Why was so little attention given to her? Does it come down to race or being photogenic? I don't know.

Why the gross disparity in disability pay, 20% vs 80%. I suspect the media attention may shame the government into doing the right thing, but why the oversight in the first place?

I'm not taking anything away from JL. These issues are outside her control, but do reflect heavily on various aspects of our society.

Thoughts?

--ashayk

Hey Fireluv! Where did ya go? We need a response.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.