The Metropolitan Life Insurance Scales that the MedMath Ideal Body Weight Calculator uses (I don't know if this is the Stillman scale or not) is IMO inaccurate for athletic, well-muscled people. Likewise Body Mass Index (BMI).

We need a fast, accurate measure for percent body fat for use by clinical people as well as coaches and trainers. Again, IMO.

"OK, so maybe the Europeans do have something to teach Americans after all."

Art, I've lived in both places. Americans could learn a lot from the Europeans. And vice versa.

funny, I received exactly the same pictures as an email that said,
Paris, France and Paris, Kentucky...

One initial step--Stop busing kids who live within walking and bike riding distance to school. The other day, I got stuck behind a school bus on my way to work. It made 4 stops within one block! Once it only went one house down the street to stop again. Use the money saved from bus purchase/maintenance/fuel to improve sidewalks and bike paths so kids won't have to get out on major thoroughfares.

Next step--Stop giving kids free breakfast at school and reduced/free lunch. Both of these "meals" are loaded with high fat, high calorie foods, and much of it is wasted--thrown in the trash. Then the kids go buy an ice cream bar and candy and sodas out of the vending machines located in the school. What happened to bringing a baloney and cheese sandwich and an apple to school for lunch?

Second to fast food and entertainment (the two major causes of obesity) the industry in America probably making the next most money is the diet/weight loss industry. For the price of one or two diet books, one could purchase a good pair of walking shoes and start walking around the block. Of course, the other thing, stop stuffing your damn piehole, is not only free, it will actually save you money.

If I remember correctly, Stillman has two scales, one for "normal" people one for runners. However, the stillman scale for regular folks also states that it does not apply for muscular persons.

"I have photoagraphic evidence from Mardi Gras that disputes your findings."

I don't believe you. I demand to see the proof of this claim!

Here is a portion of an article I read on the subject at http://www.serpentine.org.uk/advice/coach/fh01.php: [/url]Getting it right: weight relative to height in distance running

by Frank Horwill

Most coaches use the Stillman height/weight ratio table for distance runners. The average man is allocated 110 lbs (50kg) for the first 5 feet (1.524m) in height. Thereafter, he is allocated 5½ lbs (2.495 kg) for every additional inch (O.025m) in height.

Thus, a man 6 feet tall (1.829m) would be allocated 110lbs (50kg) plus 12 x 5½lbs (2.495kg), which comes to 176 lbs or 12 st 8lbs (80kg). The exceptions to the rule are Japanese wrestlers, heavyweight boxers and certain rugby players, who aim to exceed this weight. Females are allocated 100 lbs (45kg) for the first 5 feet (1.524m) and 5lbs (2.268kg) for every inch thereafter. Therefore a woman who is 5 ft 6ins (1.676m) tall would be given 100 lbs plus 6 x 5lbs, which totals 130 lbs or 9st.4lbs (59kg).

These allocations are considered healthy guidelines for non-active people. However, a distance runner needs to weigh less, about 5 to 10 per cent less. This makes our 6 foot tall male requiring to be 8 to 17 lbs less than his 1761bs, around 168lbs to 159 lbs. And our female of 5ft 6ins should be around 6 lbs to 13lbs less, around 124 lbs to 117 lbs.The key factor in successful distance running is your height : weight ratio.

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Now, because triathletes need more upper body mass than a distance runner, you probably don't need to be 10% less, but those figures take into account muscle, etc. 5' 8" and 220 isn't healthy if it's fat or muscle. Your frame was not meant to carry that much weight, period.

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Dave in WI
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"What you once were isn't what you want to be anymore" - Wilco

"Then the kids go buy an ice cream bar and candy and sodas out of the vending machines located in the school."

Step two - how about removing the vending machines from the schools or at least replace them with healthier choices.

If only most people could see how true this is! My wife works with Europeans and when they visit, they are astounded at how fat Americans are. They take pictures of fat people to show to the folks back home because it's so unbelievable otherwise. My wife has to work hard to find places to take the Europeans to eat where the food isn't delivered to the table with a forklift. It's not just the fast food places, virtually every restaurant serves portions 3-4 times larger than was common 20-30 years ago. Most meals are laden with fat and are very high in calories.

Rather than make people feel like being fat is acceptable - maybe some well designed public service advertising featuring photos like this would show people how the rest of the world views them.

It's not just about food though. Americans don't get enough exercise. How about making a central parking lot in a city and having people walk to work from there rather than having parking at every business? Isn't it funny to see people circle around a parking lot to find a space 10 feet closer so they won't have to walk so far?

Our entire culture revolves around making things easier. Americans don't want to exercise or eat properly because it's too hard. They want some magic pill that will allow them to be lazy, eat all they want, be thin and fit, and not have to work at it.

Don

the quote on the stillman scale was for sedentary people.

JIm S

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Jim

**Note above poster works for a retailer selling bikes and related gear*

Ok, you are going to force me to recite facts. I will do that, but unfortunately I have to work for a few hours. Damn, life keeps getting in the way.

I am certain that the wacko environmenalists have all sorts of projections along the lines of Paul Erlichman (I think) who made a big splash 35 years ago with his book Population Bomb and related theories about how we are all going to die a miserable, impoverished death in the near future. Of course he was 180 degrees wrong in every prediction he ever made. That didn't stop him from being the intellectual darling though.

Our generation just has to come to grips with the stark reality that our life, our country and our world just keep getting markedly better every year.

" virtually every restaurant serves portions 3-4 times larger than was common 20-30 years ago."

Besides the fat content, large portion sizes are a major factor.

Whenever my wife and I go out we quite often can order just one meal and split it. She's a cheap date in this way!

> My wife works with Europeans and when they visit, they are astounded at how fat Americans are.
> They take pictures of fat people to show to the folks back home because it's so unbelievable otherwise.

I had a couple of German programmers over for a week, and when we visited downtown Detroit, they kept asking me to take pictures of them with various groups of people in the background, moreso than landmarks and stuff. "What's with the fascination with the people?" I asked. "Are they so different? Different clothing, or something?"

"Oh yeah!" said Steffen.

"Their clothing is huge!" Lutz winked.

They had been commenting the whole time about the big fat servings of food going to the big fat people.

Lutz' other comment when he got ID'ed ordering a Corona. "What? I have to be 21 to drink a beer, but a 16 year old can drive a super-charged Mustang!?"

-Zo

[reply]"Then the kids go buy an ice cream bar and candy and sodas out of the vending machines located in the school."

Step two - how about removing the vending machines from the schools or at least replace them with healthier choices.[/reply]

One really sad side to this suggestion is that the soda machines are some of the biggest fund raisers for the schools to buy equipment for sports teams and the band. Quite an oxymoron....drink empty-calorie-laden sodas to buy sports equipment yet fewer kids are partitipating in sports because PE is being cut out of the curriculum.

Our sons go to a school where sports are mandatory. Their day is from 8 a.m to 5:30 p.m. For the non competitive types there are recreational sport choices such as tennis, dance, weights, etc along with the competitive team sports and one may choose one art option a year like the school musical. One day i took note that there are no obese kids at this school. A couple of "hefty" girls who will never be Kate Moss skinny, but at least they are getting out every afternoon and moving. Even the boys who come into the high school slightly heavy quickly slim down as they get into sports and grow in height. It irritates me that the public schools (with my tax dollars) don't require athletics and the kids are only in school a few hours a day, half day on wednesday.

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______________________________
Have you hugged Your Mom today?

Those predictions that "the world was coming to an end" are based on population growth curves, trends in consumption of non-renewable resources (ex. oil production peaking in 2030, while oil use continues to accelerate upward), and farmable land; I am not talking about those projections. The projections i am talking about are not global in nature, but individual. Im not saying the world is coming to an end. Can we at least agree fat people dont live as long as fit people. If you get enough fatties in the population, they pull down the life expectancy averages, even though medicine and other improvements extend the lives of healthy individuals. Thus, for us healthy people, life expectancy will continue to rise, but because of the fatties who die of heart attacks at age 50, the overall average is brought down. And for the first time in the last 100 yrs, there are so many fatties that the overall projected life expectancy for this upcoming generation is lower than the previous generation. That all the arguement states, and considering childhood obesity is up 400% between generations, its a pretty convincing arguement.

if you add to this that germans (along with norwegians I think) are the fatest people in Europe, that says a lot...

"Step two - how about removing the vending machines from the schools or at least replace them with healthier choices. "

I don't know if you could easily get rid of the machines as it is my guess there is some financial benefit to the school to have them, I don't know this for sure though. However, your suggestion of replacing the contents with healthier products is a no-brainer. Even where I work (Nike) we have vending machines that are full of crap. Granted they typically sell out, but I would much rather see a vending machine offering healthier choices such as Powerbars, etc. (granted not all of those bars are all that "healthy" but probably better than the "Ho-Ho's".). I think we need to have better choices with little or no trans-fats.

Besides that, schools should emphasize the need for physical education. And these programs should be more refined than just showing up and doing nothing for an hour. Kids should all be required. Offer aerobics. Offer stretching. Offer spinning. Offer swimming, running, etc. I think it would be great to see more corporations make donations to schools to provide them with the needed exercise equipment. This is beyond organized sports - this is about health in general.

I also agree about getting kids to walk to school. If the school is within a mile, the kids should be walking there - no doubt.

On fast foods - I eat them on very, very rare occassions. I think they have some purpose (though not much). The bottom line is no one is forcing anyone to go in there an eat. Parents need to take more control on kids eating behaviors, especially when they are young. If you introduce coke, dr pepper, etc to kids at the age of 4 or 5 years, they will most likely continue with that for the rest of their lives. I think soda's are as much of the problem as anything. Typically, kids don't eat much anyway. They are "snackers". Fill the house with good snacks and they'll do better. Fill the house with cookies, cokes, ice creams ... they go for that first and then they won't eat dinner because they are full. I know parents who let their kids have 3-4 cokes a day- that's insane!

I think the fast food companies are changing to some degree and offering a few "healthier" choices, but most of them are done in connection with a "fad" diet (ie Atkins or South Beach). Once someone is in a fast food joint, it's often too tempting to still each bad ... "oh, I'll get the salad, but I'll still get the fries and a shake."

I wouldn't mind seeing the government offer a tax break to people who go and get a yearly physical and fall within healthy guidelines. Don't you think people might be more willing to get and stay fit if they knew, for example, that they might get a $300 tax refund (just an example) if they were to pass a physical? Wouldn't that be worth it?

Dennis

They take pictures of fat people to show to the folks back home because it's so unbelievable otherwise.

Oh great. "You've got to go to America. They've got fat people you have to see to believe. It's awesome!"

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How do we want our country to operate? Do we want free choice or do we want our government to decide what's best for us? Essentially that's what it comes down to.

I don't understand why folks just cannot order smaller meals. They are on the menu too. They are available. Why do we have to eat ourselves into obesity? Why can't many americans (us) seem to do anthing responsibly or in moderation? [<--- that's the problem, not food content, IMO]

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Parents need to take more control on kids eating behaviors, especially when they are young. If you introduce coke, dr pepper, etc to kids at the age of 4 or 5 years, they will most likely continue with that for the rest of their lives.

That's the problem, parents do control what the kids eat. The kids don't drive temselves to McD's and pay for the meal. If the parents ate healthy, so would the kids. Everytime I (and my wife and son) eat McD's it's b/c we didn't plan ahead to have healthy food ready, are tired from work/training and need something quick, are being lazy, or want some salty, greasy food (tastes good on occassion). We seem to be blaming the kids. The kids eat what their parents put in front of them.

We're beating around the bush on stupid details instead of trying to see what causes irresponsible parents. In this day and age, you can't even call some parents irresponsible because of how it will make them feel and how it will make you look. we need wholesale changes, and someone in a public office needs to stand up and say what needs to be said insted of pampering everyone.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Do you think that the - for lack of a better phrase - "complexity of life" has anything to do with it? Are we so busy running from place to place, taking kids around, worrying about jobs and income and taxes and life in general that most people don't have the mental energy to exercise or even exercise control of eating impulses?

gutdoc, I just edited in some more remarks where address your question.

It comes down to priorities (IMO), do you want to [1] watch TV, relax, couch-time, etc or [2] prepare food that benefits your and your family's health? Sometimes it's #1, sometimes it's #2. As long as #2 occurrs a great deal more than #1, you'll be fine.

At the grocery store we try and find foods that are quick to fix and are "more healthy" than fast food. They are our "just in case" foods. In case we're running a little late, or the main meal didn't turn out right, or we're out of important ingredients, etc.

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My son like chips, cookies, candy, grapes, oranges, bananas, cake, donuts, pop-tarts, melon, etc.

At home, he eats grapes, oranges, bananas, etc. Why? Because that's what I eat and it's what I buy. We occassioanlly have cookies {I eat ice-cream everyday in moderate amounts}

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

> add to this that germans (along with norwegians I think) are the fatest people in Europe, that says a lot

But then of course you have to subtract the fact that Detroit is one of the fattest cities in the US...

I need to move back to Honolulu. Besides the fat people, all the freakin' cars, the total lack of bike lanes, decent sidwalks, and horrific lack of mass transit, this midwest winter thing is ridiculous!

-Zo

<<Do you think that the - for lack of a better phrase - "complexity of life" has anything to do with it? Are we so busy running from place to place, taking kids around, worrying about jobs and income and taxes and life in general that most people don't have the mental energy to exercise or even exercise control of eating impulses?>>

I think Americans have made life more complex than it has to be. Where I live, West Olympia, the seventh level of Hell, it's all about the $450,000 home, the $40,000 SUV and Abercrombie & Fitch (nobody wears Nautica anymore, that's last year's style). So, guess what you have--a bunch of status concious fat people who are stressing about opressive mortgages, getting a new car every two years, standing in line at Starbuck's, one upping each other, etc. I grew up in a single wide mobile with attached car port. I think double wides are phat. Never in my life do I want to be married to a friggin house payment. I view a $450,000 house as a guilded cage. Corrian counter-tops? Funk that, give me formica and I'll spend the rest on a bike. That is what is wrong with America, wealth over health.

Brett

It's not just Europeans. I live in California and on a family trip to Disneyworld in Florida I couldn’t believe how many obese people there were. Not just adults, but kids as young as 2. If you ever want to feel good about yourself or need inspiration to eat better than the Disneyworld water park is the place to go. We watched as a crew helped a 500 pound man out of his double wide wheelchair onto a raft. The number of 300 plus pound people was staggering. I would say that 1/2 of all people in Disneyworld could not see there feet. There was also a waffle restaurant, all you can eat buffet, ice-cream, candy store or convenience store everywhere you looked outside the park. Try to find a healthy option to the typical Disneyland food inside the park and you will be disappointed. If there was demand they would have it so you know not many people ask for healthy options.



I lost 45 lbs over the last few years. I can’t tell you how many time I have been asked, “Is everything OK”. People assume if you loose weight you must be sick. You tell them you don’t have cancer and the next question is, “Are you on Atkins?” You tell them you are just exercising a lot and eating right they don’t believe it. I am 6’ 178lbs with a BMI of 25 and a body fat of 14%. It’s not like I am underweight.



Dave

Yes, I can personally attest to the fact that the manfacturers are messing with clothing sizes. In 1988 I wore a size 10 at my current weight (5'11" 171). Then I got way out of shape. Have worked very hard to get back to were I was and now that I am back to wearing my old size 10 jeans I've discovered that any new pants I buy are a size 6 now! While it is nice for my ego, I know it is false and what's worse is that too many women are thinking that they are still the size 10 or 12 they used to be when in reality they have gone up a couple of sizes.

I could rant on about the fast food industry too, but others have already tackled that subject. Personally, 98% of my food dollars are spent now at Whole Foods and Trader Joe's. Very little I consider nutritious in the average grocery store these days (produce section excepted).

A reformed eater and better educated consumer and triathlete

Oblivous is the word

I observed this sign in Verona, WI while scouting the bike course before IM Moo last year:

"HELP STOP JUVENILE DIABITIES

BEER & BRATS $3.50"