While certainly not for everyone, the typical diatribes against large law firms are grossly overstated. I have worked in a large law firm for over 12 years, and I have witnessed first-hand unquestionabe ethics, hard work and a sincere desire to do good. My only criticism of some of my partners is not being able to balance long work hours and family, with the need to remain active. I have lost two partners in their 40s. There is a culture of people quite unlike those of us on this forum that simply do not understand, and will not make the sacrifice, to put in some aerobic activity on a daily basis. I will say, though, that my racing in Ironman and constantly harping on some of my colleagues, has made some difference. We now have a running club, one colleague did an IM on his own and a few others are entering the sport. It is a long haul to make change.

RA, give the article a read, it is really interesting.

As a graduate of Vandy law school, I found it interesting that it showed up in the law review. Vandy geared everyone to the practice of law in a big firm. I went in-house after law school (they were most interested in diversity at the time). Law can be a demanding profession and I have a close friend who gave up big firm life after she developed an ulcer.

I don't regret my choice, just wish for another career that is a little more spiritually fulfilling.

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I did read most of it and skimmed the rest.

A couple of thoughts.

I had the BBQ scenario when I was a first year in school. A prof who had made millions in the Firm then got off the ride used to give a part for everyone in his first year sections. It was a fine victorian mansion filled with really expensive toys, bow tied wait staff and a really cute hostess (he had given up on wives a while back) We all left the party swearing to study REALLY hard so we could get sum o' that.

I think he soft pedaled the time commitment to the Firm. I got in the game in the late 80's and while I was on the clock at 7:00 a.m., I rarely thought about going home until after 9:00 a.m. (I thought I WAS balancing my life because I would rarely go into the office on Sundays. Ha Ha)

I think he is correct about an extraordinary level of competition. I am not sure it is just about money though. I think if you concentrated the same number of hypercompetitive OCD types in any profession where there is a winner and a loser and you would get the same results.

Luckily for me, I did get a bright line ethical moment that forced my hand and I did bail out to a small firm with a better approach to life. (I am not saying it isn't weird compared to the rest of the world, but it is better for me.)

Another thought on competition. I have heard that attorneys are generally significantly taller or shorter than the national average and test significantly higher for testosterone and aggression. This could be apocryphal, but if true, could explain some things.

fulla - thanks for the article. i think it raises some important issues and i have forwarded it to a number of my disgruntled friends in NY and DC.

RA - "the typical diatribes against large law firms are grossly overstated"

I'd say you are right as far as ethics goes - i'd say it would be extremely unusual for a lawyer at a reputable firm to play outside of the lines - these lawyers are generally extremely respectful of rules, plus the consequences of transgression are simply too great for large firms. The problem is that the realm of the "ethical" is quite broad in our adversarial system. An example: I was involved in defending a Title VII sex discrimination class action brought by female employees against a large corporate employer. Bottom line was that it was extremely likely that the corporation's policy violated Title VII. The corporation nevertheless instructed us to drag out the matter in litigation (and good lawyers can drag things out for a very long time) because the cost of litigation was more than offset by the savings in not complying with Title VII (it had to do with insurance coverage). Now, as the issue of discrimination hinged on statutory interpretation, and as any lawyer worth his salt can make a halfway decent argument for any side of any legal argument, we were technically not acting unethically to litigate the matter, but it left a bad taste in my mouth nonetheless.

But based on my personal experience I would say the diatribe in this particular article about the hours, the money and, above all, the game, are very applicable to lawyers / office culture at large corporate law firms in NY, Boston, DC, SF etc.

The article does make a valid point about chasing the buck. It's tough to turn a blind eye to the money that can be had in this profession, though in terms of your personal life, it is indeed comparable to selling your soul to Faustus.

Like many things in life, balance should be one of the principal objectives. You can have decent income, exciting cases, solid family and a personal life if you make wise choices. I recall coming out of law school in 1992 with many of my classmates that did relatively well moving on to the big NY, DC, etc., firms. The common comment was "I'll start there, build great resume material, and then go where I really want to establish my career." I jumped one step ahead of them, thinking why not start where I want to establish my career. I passed on a large San Fran. firm that I clerked with, passed on Skadden and some other large firms notorious for being grist mills, and went with a large S.E. firm. I was paid much less, but when you factored in cost of living, and no income taxes in FL, I think my income went further than anywhere else. Sure I worked, and continue to work, long hours, but nothing comparable to my NY and DC classmates. And the best part, I actually got better experience quite early, getting into the courtroom quickly as opposed to being a library mole for years.

The best testament to me that I had found the right place was 6 mos into my career. One of my partner's fathers had just been convicted of bank and IRS fraud in a 360 million dollar land flip conspiracy - turned out to be one of Florida's longest and largest white collar trials ever. The record in this case filled a huge office; the trial transcripts were about 90 volumes. The Firm took on the appeal pro bono to help a very young partner out. Each partner in the Firm devoted many hours dissecting the transcripts looking for any scintilla of evidence against the father. I was charged with responsibility for authoring the draft briefs. All told, I worked for 6 years on this appeal - not full time, mind you - and every partner put in many weekends reading and analyzing. This was done at no charge and I was credited with the pro bono work as billable. We undid a terrible injustice, getting a very tainted conviction reversed. In fact, of the 12 alleged co-conspirators, only our client was signaled out as having been wronged. There was not one shred of evidence against him (just association); but the taint from the other wrongdoers was fatal at trial.

My advice to students now - and I am heavily involved in recruiting - is NOT to get blinded by dollars or reputations or big cities. Think long term and with an eye toward quality of life. Yes, you will work long hours at most firms, some months more than others, but if you do not overwhelm yourself, and choose a practice area that interests you, and a collegial firm, this can be a very personally rewarding profession.

Now that said, JohntheSavage is doing some pretty cool shit! Dude, think of the cool interviews you will have when you decide to come back to the fold. I'd pick your resume out over any top % law review geek.

"Bottom line was that it was extremely likely that the corporation's policy violated Title VII. The corporation nevertheless instructed us to drag out the matter in litigation (and good lawyers can drag things out for a very long time) because the cost of litigation was more than offset by the savings in not complying with Title VII (it had to do with insurance coverage). "

As a plaintiff's attorney in medical malpractice cases I witness this type of conduct by defense attorneys on a regular basis. It really has tragic consequences for the plaintiff and their family. I know the difference between a solid case and a questionable case and prior to litigation I make a reasonable demand for settlement. The fact that I have to litigate a case for two years to get my client an amount close to my original demand is a real tragedy and grossly misunderstood by the public. I don't know how defense attorneys can sleep at night. I guess they are paid well enough to buy the good booze to help them forget about it. If I sound bitter it's because I am involved in an especially contentious case with four defense firms acting more belligerent than anything I have experienced in my career. However, it's making me work harder and train harder so it's a win/win for me. The downside, my client, a single, paralyzed 22 year old mother has to wait for proper compensation.

Group,

I have been president of our local bar, and held many leadership roles on a state level. No question that most (the overwelming majority) of lawyers work harder, care more, have more pressure, take more "hits," make less, and have stronger core beliefs than the public will ever know.

Our state survey shows that 11% of lawyers contemplate suicide at least twice a month! The pressure from politicians, media, and then therefore the public can be quite tough; and, mostly unfair.

I am fiercely proud to be a lawyer. Throughout most of the history of humankind, the rule was by the rich and powerful - there was/is no "law" for most. Only through the law and our legal system (and religion - will that be next? :-)) do individuals have hopes, dreams and a fairness to pursue them.

Unfortunately all of the pundits and critics have had the mixed blessing of living where there has been the rule of law, and therefore freedom, for over 200 years - oh how soon they forget. Ever read the Magna Charta or Declaration of Independance? That is how most of the world really still lives. Our legal system, and lawyers, are the worst except when compared to any other!

Have you hugged your lawyer today?

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

at work at 7am and never leaving before 9am???
wow, tough life! :-)

I don't think you are helping our cause much by a internecine tirade against "defense lawyers" in general. Bear in mind that some of them think plaintiff lawyers are greedy, ambulance chasing contingency fee hacks that couldn't get a real job. Gross over-generalization indeed, on both sides of the line. Suffice it to say there are bad eggs in every basket, and that applies to every profession, and unfortunately every sport (think Nina, Tyler, Bonds, etc.). Best wishes to you in that specific case. I could not imagine seeing what many of you PI lawyers see on a daily basis.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you say "choose a practice area that interests you."

Lots of people become lawyers because they like the idea of being a lawyer but they don't necessarily like - or even know - what lawyers do all day. On the other hand, if you really like setting up REIT's, or whatever, then half the battle is won just by the fact that you like the work you're doing. Eventually, you'll find a good place (for you) to do it.

Luckily for me, I got involved in my practice area (criminal defense) while still in law school. While I may change my mind some day, I've had a great time so far.

Interestingly, criminal defense on the federal side seems to be what practicing law used to be like: There's usually an awful lot of trust between the opposing sides, which makes it a lot easier than filing motions to compel responses to the seventh set of supplemental interrogatories.

Interesting.

I read a similiar article years ago ago about health professionals:

MD's - higher than average substance abuse problems. Even worse for their wives.

Dentists - higher than average suicide rates.

Chiropractors - higher than average divorce rates.

lawyers on here, what areas do you practice in and what kinda practice are you in?

i'm a lawyer in new zealand (as some of you probably know) and i work in a small practice (only 2 lawyers) in a mid sized town (taupo, home to IM NZ). i do litigation/dispute resolution type stuff. most of the work i seem to get is family, relationship property and employment.

The term "lawyer" is a broad word. I live in a rural village of 1800. Our one lawyer in town is a very laid back guy who walks around the office in his slippers and keeps his dog in the office. I've only ever used him for a couple of real estate transactions but don't suspect he gets involved with much more than this sort of thing in such a small town.

That's a bit different from being a criminal or corporate lawyer in a major urban center.

I cut my teeth doing criminal defense work for the Public Defender Service in Washington DC. I liken that to being a 19 year old private in major combat. I quickly got used to the reality of being poor and black and all the societal baggage that comes with it. I also burned out and I applaud everyone who can hang in there and deal with the pressure. You are truly on the front lines of the profession.

At the end of a long day, so I will save the article for another time. I am in a two person practice in a small town. I also double as the Chief Deputy Prosecuting Attorney for the County. I did criminal defense before and hope I never have to do it again. Small town practice suits me fine - laid back, mostly informal, job gets done. I walk across the street from the office to the Courthouse and I make my own hours. Great for the family life, training is worked in, and I make a decent living.



To each his own.

"lawyers on here, what areas do you practice in and what kinda practice are you in?"

I practice criminal defense at a 20-lawyer firm in Los Angeles. Most of the firm does litigation but I've been completely on the criminal side for a couple years now. Unfortunately, it isn't always as idealistic as I'd like (I'd rather be in the FPD's Office) but I've got three kids and a mortgage to cover. So most of my work is business crimes or what they call white collar. In the end, it's almost always some type of fraud, whether health care, securities, bank fraud etc. It's still interesting and, to me at least, important. I also do a fair amount of pro bono/court appointed work. These cases have ranged from counterfeiting to bank robbery to drug possession to capital murder.

When I tried doing some corporate/securities work years ago I couldn't stand it. I just didn't care if the board was allowed to sell their stock or not. On the other hand, jail time is real to me. If I were ever threatened with jail I don't think I could handle that at all.

I think you give me too much credit. See my reply to fulla.

Fulla -

I'm mostly a construction litigation attorney - former architect. While I handle a myriad of construction issues, my specialization is in larger defect litigation matters. Last year I handled a whopping 6 cases (but big, juicy ones)! Two went to trial, a 3-weeker, and then 6 weeks later, a 2-weeker. My year was like a Tale of Two Cities: The first half was one long continuous work day, the second half was like vacation (relatively speaking). Good thing I dig this stuff!

My Firm has eight offices in Florida, and basically handles all types of legal matters, except marital, criminal and personal injury. We have about 165 lawyers last I heard.

I'm curious what you all average yearly in billable hours and how you balance in the rest of your life. I'm also curious as to your level of satisfaction. That article was a bit depressing!