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OT: My daughter's question
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She's 11 and came home from school. In Science, they're discussing the Universe. Her teacher said, "The Universe is comprised of everything." Later, the teacher commented that the Universe is expanding. So, my daughter asks me, "If the Universe is everything, and it is expanding, what is it expanding into?"
I thought for a moment and answered, "It's expanding into nothing."
She then asked, "Well, what is 'nothing'?"
I responded, "Nothing is everything the Universe isn't."
With a perpelexed look on her face, she asked, "What does that mean?" and I answered, "That's religion."

Am I helping her much?

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
Last edited by: HalfSpeed: Feb 3, 05 14:19
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Re: My daughter's question [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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...reads like a good post for Tibbs' room.
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Re: My daughter's question [madisonbucky] [ In reply to ]
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I thought about that, but there's so much OT today, I figured, 'what the hay.'

Besides, whenever I spend time in the Lavender Room, I feel I need to take a shower.

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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The fact that you have an 11 year old daughter who was exposed to these concepts in school and is pondering them is great in and of itself. Very good.

There is hope for tomorrow.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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not sure if you're right or wrong... maybe, the universe is everything that currently exists? and, it's expanding into a universe comprised of things that will exist? i don't know... but, sounds like a good conversation.

kind of like explaining to someone that there are different sizes of infinity.
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I actually told her more, later that night, as I could tell she wasn't quite grasping.

I said her teacher was wrong to say the Universe is everything. I told her the Universe, as we understand it, is all matter and energy expanding outward in all directions from a single point. What is beyond that is what we don't understand.

I told her it is important to question what you are told and keep asking until your curiosity is satisfied or the answer you get is "I don't know." When you get that answer, it is up to you to continue the search (again) until your curiosity is satisfied. Which, hopefully, will be never.

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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The Universe isn't exactly expanding per se. Things are just getting further apart. You could just as easily explain it as everything getting smaller at the same rate.



Increasing awareness for suffers of DGS (Diminished Gluteal Syndrome).
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [UCSD racer] [ In reply to ]
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Is that why my voice is getting higher?

Your concept would most likely escape an 11 YO.

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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You can't comprehend it with 3-dimensional thinking. The universe is composed of multiple dimensions, perhaps as many as 26, but more probably 10. Viewed from far enough away, it takes on the shape of a moebius torus (just an attempt to create a visual)

Recomended reading:
Beyond Einstein or Hyperspace by Michio Kaku
The Mind of God by Paul Davies


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]She's 11 and came home from school. In Science, they're discussing the Universe. Her teacher said, "The Universe is comprised of everything." Later, the teacher commented that the Universe is expanding. So, my daughter asks me, "If the Universe is everything, and it is expanding, what is it expanding into?"
I thought for a moment and answered, "It's expanding into nothing."
She then asked, "Well, what is 'nothing'?"
I responded, "Nothing is everything the Universe isn't."
With a perpelexed look on her face, she asked, "What does that mean?" and I answered, "That's religion."

Am I helping her much?[/reply]

We really don't know that the universe (as the teacher was referring to it) is everything. It is everything that it is within our power to observe, and we can't even observe everything we know should be there (dark matter for instance).

So, I would tell her that sometimes teachers at her age simplify things to make them a little more understandable but that if she finds it interesting there could be a career for her trying to find out the answers to these questions for her children.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]I actually told her more, later that night, as I could tell she wasn't quite grasping.

I said her teacher was wrong to say the Universe is everything. I told her the Universe, as we understand it, is all matter and energy expanding outward in all directions from a single point. What is beyond that is what we don't understand.

I told her it is important to question what you are told and keep asking until your curiosity is satisfied or the answer you get is "I don't know." When you get that answer, it is up to you to continue the search (again) until your curiosity is satisfied. Which, hopefully, will be never.[/reply]

Good for you. Another thing you might tell her is something we were told in medical school. That half the things they were teaching us was wrong. Only problem is they didn't know which half. It probably isn't true that half of what she is being taught is wrong but some of it will turn out to be. The higher she goes in school the less likely what she is being taught will still be considered true in 50 or even 10 years. Only problem is that wrong stuff will still be considered the right answer on tests now so she still needs to learn it as best she can.So that is why it is important to always keep an open mind and always be ready to keep learning. Hey, I am starting to get confused. Better stop while I am ahead.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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there is a simple explanation you could give her that would do a good job helping her comprehend this bizzarre fact.

Want to hear it?





Where would you want to swim ?
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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duuuude, maybe the entire universe is just a tiny speck of dirt under the fingernail of an enormous super-being....

wait, maybe there is like an .... an entire universe... in this speck of dirt under MY fingernail.

woah. duuuuude.
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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The Universe is expanding into the space that is created as it expands.....as far as we know.
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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I think your answer was as good as any. There's the 'observable' universe, which is expanding. Then there's whatever's beyond the observable universe.

Science really only deals with things that can be tested, which means it can only deal with things we can observe. We can't observe anything outside the observable universe (hence the name), so science really has nothing to say about it. Religion, philosophy, and idle speculation all take over where science ends.

There are theoretical physicists who have developed theories about a "multiverse" which tries to describe the area beyond our observable universe, but as far as I know none of them have proposed a test that would demonstrate anything about the multiverse, so their work isn't much different from philosophy.

Lee
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [lsilverman] [ In reply to ]
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I think Donald Rumsfeld said it best:


"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."


That ought to clear it right up for her.


__________________________________________________
What a drag it is getting old. -- Stones
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Cousin,

You speak as if this is fact. It is a mathematical possibility, no more no less. It's impossible to see the universe 'from far enough away'. The books you reference contain theories only.

Colin
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [col-the-lurker] [ In reply to ]
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actually, if we describe the Universe as the set that contains everything then it leads to a paradox well known in mathematics that basically states that the set of all sets doesn't exist.
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [direwolf] [ In reply to ]
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The man is brilliant, like the rest of the... oh wait, if I say that, this will all have to go to the Lavender Room... bye!

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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That's not dirt. It's a dried booger. Nevertheless, there could be a universe in there. (Quit picking your nose, it's disgusting!)

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
Last edited by: HalfSpeed: Feb 3, 05 19:04
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [Greg/ORD] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
there is a simple explanation you could give her that would do a good job helping her comprehend this bizzarre fact.

Want to hear it?
Fire away... (keep it clean)

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [col-the-lurker] [ In reply to ]
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Kaku and Davies are two of the brightest minds of our time. Their "theories" are rather well developed. You state that these are "theories only" as if the theories put forward by such men had no more value than the ravings of street corner evangelist.

It was "theories only" that took us to the moon and split the atom.


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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Ow....my head hurts now.... ;-)

Just great, now I'm thinking this is what I'm going to have to deal with when my son gets older....*groan* At least I'll have two chances to screw it up...(second chance with my daughter).

So..."because I said so" doesn't work? D'oh!

"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time." Steven Wright.
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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Here is one way to comprehend this. The universe is not expanding "into something". Space itself is expanding, but this is not so easy to understand for us, since we are 4 dimensional creatures.

However, we can make a stab at it using a crazy but interesting analogy. There are 4 dimensions that we can experience: for anything to exist for us, it must have height, width, thickness, and it must exist for some length of time (that is why time is called a 'dimension'). But science indicates that they are likely 5 (or many more) dimensions. For us to understand any additional dimensions, we must stretch our brains and imaginations to the max.

So imagine a new "fairy tale" world where all the beings were only 3 dimensional: they had height, width, and time, but no thickness. These beings were thinner than a piece of paper and they lived on a flat plane (not an airplane of course, but a very large flat surface like a giant piece of paper). The beings lived on the plane and were able to move about, but only in two dimensions: forward-backward and left-right, but they could never leave the plane or comprehend that there may be another dimension (thickness) above or below their planar world.

Now imagine that the plane upon which the flat beings were living on was not really a plane, but was actually a very large sphere. To us, we could see that it was a sphere, but the flat beings were small and the sphere was very large so they still thought they were living on a very large flat plane. To them, there were some very odd things about their world. For example, if one of them were to start in a particular place and move exactly straight for a long, long time, the being would end up in exactly the same place it began. This was odd to them, but still every measurement they could take seemed to indicate that they lived on a large flat plane, not a sphere (plus, a sphere is a 4 dimensional concept and they could not comprehend additional dimensions very well).

Now imagine that the very large sphere was like a balloon that was being filled with air. The sphere was stretching and expanding everywhere: the very material of the sphere was stretching and the 'space' of the planar beings was expanding at all points simultaneously. Note that their planar universe was not expanding "into something". Their planar space itself was expanding. To us, as 4 dimensional beings, this was easy to see and comprehend from a perspective above their world, but the 3 dimensional planar beings could not figure out where this additional planar space "came from." Their entire and very existence was confined to their planar surface--they could not comprehend any other 'space' outside of it.

So, to end the analogy, we are very similar to those flat beings living in their 3 dimensional world. Our very space (4 dimensional space) is expanding all around us, but this is hard to see or understand clearly unless one can exist and observe it from a 5 dimensional world (time, height, width, thickness, and another dimension{s}). But just as we can understand and oversee the 3 dimensional planar world expand, a 5 dimensional being could easily understand our universe expanding in the same way.

Hope that helps slightly. Any helpful explanation of this concept will be a mind bender.





Where would you want to swim ?
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Re: OT: My daughter's question [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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You might want to check out some books by Stephen Hawking. As brilliant as he is he has written some great stuff on this subject in excellent lay terms.
Jay

Jay
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