I can't see the picture, but I envision it's an aircraft full of body bags or coffins. Lots of Soldiers and Marines have been killed over there. Too many. My old unit E 2/7 is there and they've been taking casualties. Ask any Marine if he believes in his mission and then ask youself if you really "support the troops".

What you libs can't seem to understand is that war is not precise, surgical, predicatable or clean. If the President had done nothing and we had been hit again, you would be sreaming about what 'wasn't done'. There is no exit strategy. This will turn into WWIII.

Wake up.

Do you think we can solve this by 'trying to understand why they hate us so much'?

Finally, ask yourself who would Osama Bin Laden like to see as the next President of the United States?

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

I agree with most of your post, but could you help me with the following...

"If the President had done nothing and we had been hit again..." We're talking about Iraq right... when exactly were we hit the first time?

Hhhhmmm....

"who would Osama Bin Laden like to see as the next President of the United States?"

I don't know - would that be the highly decorated combat veteran with extensive foreign relations experience, or the mysteriously absent from all assigned duties during the Vietnam war "veteran," who, by all reputable accounts, has done everything possible to exclude the professional military establishment from all executive level decisions regarding the current conflict?

.... And, surprise, you can't pin a "lib" tag on me. Bush's insane deficit spending antics raise my ire every bit as much as his Best and Brightest redux foreign policy - and that, my friend, is a core conservative gripe.

MH

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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

TTTRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Timbit D would be proud.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Mojo, you are a riot! Now go back to your Rambo video collection and leave the thinking to the other primates on the forum, ok? Good mojo! Here, have this banana.

I love how you talk in Hollywood-speak: TAKING CASUALTIES. THERE IS NO EXIT STRATEGY. THIS WILL TURN INTO WWIII (mojo begins to get a chubby...). Ooh, you forgot one! WAR IS HELL.

mojo, when YOU wake up, tell us about the dream you had where Osama and Iraq were finally linked (your post appears to make that assumption...did you stumble a bit on your facts in your frenzied war-excitement?), where they found the WMDs, where Iraq was "liberated", where everything the U.S. is currently doing "worked". Tell us about how we were able to kill all the bad guys (Yaaayyyy! stop touching your unit e 2/7 alpha bravo company roger that mojo! bad mojo!), leaving only Good, Happy Muslims that just wanted to get along. Tell us about how the American initiative in Iraq helped us to ferret out that wily ol' Osama.

But in the meantime, while you are sleeping, there's a war on, and it is messy, and it is wrong, and there are WAY more Marines and Army and Air Force over there wondering what the F*** than you might imagine, and more and more every day that are coming home in boxes. I know that gives you a little chill of uncommon valor, but for many of us, it just makes us feel sick.

Mr. Mojo: Your mojo needs work. Your zen needs even more. And as for what you are a mastur at, well, let's leave that one for the video room.

Okay, get ready. Here's my two cents. I just can't sit this one out.

Maybe there is a different perspective garnered from fighting a revolution against an oppressor to create a new nation dedicated to the premise that all men are created equal. Anyone see any similarities here? Did you know the French aided us in that conflict against England? Did anyone do a tally on how many lost their lives trying to create this nation? Maybe we should have just paid all the taxes and been happy without representation.

Americans who have failed to study American history are doomed to be unable to see any similarities to their own country's evolution.

Maybe that different perspective is something one doesn't have if one is from Australia, a nation who's heritage is that of descendants of penal outcasts? Hesitate before you strike, I do admire and respect the Australian Prime Minister and the Australian people for standing beside the President and the American people in the war against terror and many other issues and for having the backbone to hold Saddam to the terms of surrender for the Gulf War, a document Saddam signed and pledged to honor. Something the United Nations was responsible for doing but was incapable of doing.

What price is freedom?

pooks (quote), "We're talking about Iraq right... when exactly were we hit the first time?"

What was 9/11? The World Trade Center? How many died? Did anyone ever hear the Saddam Hussein's regime was a major destabilizing influence in the Arab world? Wasn't the training camp for airline hijacking in Iraq? And don't think I'm so gullible to believe that Saddam didn't know what was going on in his own country. This was one of the most oppressive military dictators of all time!

commiegirl (quote), "But in the meantime, while you are sleeping, there's a war on, and it is messy, and it is wrong, and there are WAY more Marines and Army and Air Force over there wondering what the F*** than you might imagine, and more and more every day that are coming home in boxes. I know that gives you a little chill of uncommon valor, but for many of us, it just makes us feel sick."

Why is it that of the troops that come home, the vast majority claim that we are there for the right reasons and are doing good things and 95% of the Iraqi people are grateful that we did. Oh, I forgot, its the right wing controlled media that is orchestrating that chorus of military puppets.

You dishonor our men and women fighting and those who have given their lives to protect you and your way of life, not to mention protecting, defending and preserving the Constitution of the United States of America.

Oh yes, what price freedom? This conflict is too costly in terms of loss of life. Let's ask ourselves, how many public safety personnel have lost their lives over the same time period? I mean local, county, state and federal law enforcement, fire safety, etc. Today? This week? This month? Since the beginning of the year? Where is the moral outrage for this meaningless loss of life? Oh, I'm sorry. They were protecting your property or your way of life and that made it okay.

I am not trying to diminish the sacrifice of our men and women who have given their lives in Afghanistan and Iraq to protect our lives and our way of life, but to try to put this question into a little different perspective.

How many have died on our Nation's streets and highways today? This week? This month? And since the beginning of the year? Where is the moral outrage for this loss of life? Why isn't there a similar or louder cry for the abandonment of automobile transportation? Oh, I forgot again. Automobile transportation is the means to the end and that makes it okay.

How many people were killed today by drunk drivers? This week? This month? And since the beginning of the year? Where is the sense of moral outrage for this meaningless loss of life? Oh, I'm sorry, they weren't fighting to defend your country and your way of life. That made it okay.

Maybe what you all are saying is that you just feel guilty that someone else is willing to put their lives at risk in an effort to protect your life and the life that you are able to enjoy. Maybe you feel guilty that, for some, that gives meaning to their lives and their sacrifices.

Or maybe you are just saying that, for you, its just not worth it to fight and risk your life to defend what you believe in and cherish.

Many people have given their lives to defend and protect this nation over the years of this short lived experiment in democracy. This affords you the privilege and right express your opinion in public.

I, however, am disgusted and offended by those who think the cost of freedom is free. And I also believe that if you attack me, literally, that I am far better off taking that fight to your doorstep than waiting for you to come to my doorstep again. If you are my enemy, then your friends and supporters are my enemies too. To believe otherwise, in my opinion, is foolish. But comfort and luxury has a tendency to breed fools. Maybe this is a cost of freedom too.

Okay, there's the target. Shoot.

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Ben Cline


Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.

"Americans who have failed to study American history are doomed to be unable to see any similarities to their own country's evolution."

And Americans who don't study global history are doomed to repeat the mistakes of others.

"Maybe that different perspective is something one doesn't have if one is from Australia, a nation who's heritage is that of descendants of penal outcasts?"

I'm Irish, just living in Australia. And since you're wondering, I don't respect the Australian PM either, because he doesn't listen to his people, he just does what the US wants him to do. However, since he's not a danger to the rest of the world I don't really get worked up by him.

"You dishonor our men and women fighting and those who have given their lives to protect you and your way of life, not to mention protecting, defending and preserving the Constitution of the United States of America."

And Bush honours them by refusing to attend their funerals, sending them to die based on lies and refusing to allow the media to photograph the true cost of his policies? These guys are dying for "freedom and democracy" but the President of the country which claims to be the pinnacle of "freedom and democracy" couldn't give a toss. That's why I posted the photo.

CG,

Does this mean you're not going to buy my book?

Rambo was a pussie, he only wishes he could inspire his troops and stoke liberal hate-speach in the grandfashion of Mojozenmaster. Sure as hell got the whining liberal rant out of you.....if I didn't know better, I would think the name is 'commie-girlie-man'.

You'll love this one, it's my favorite:

"peace never solved anything".........cool shit, huh?

And yes, I was born in Hollywood, at the Kaiser Hospital on Sunset Blvd.

It's like this; for 20 years, this country did -0- when we were subjected to terrorist attacks, under Republican and Democrat administrations. A fact that of life that libs don't understand is that innaction emboldens your opponents. It has an awkward way of making even the meek bloodthirsty and the bloodthirsty absolutely ruthless. Contrary to what you might be thinking, we did not deserve any of this. So, it was time to respond. Like it or not,the heart of terrorist support was in Iraq. Militarily, Iraq was the envy of the arab world and we destroyed their army in about 23 days. That inspiring, awesome use of firepower and tactics sets a good example for anyone else who thinks Ameirca does not have the will to kick ass. Now, we have to keep kicking ass, right?

Anyway, your nasty reply got me very aroused and I was thinking maybe you and me could hook up. Whaddya think? Seriously, send me a PM. A little hostility is an important component of a healthy heterosexual relationship.......unless you really are a girlieman....in which case the offer is void.

I will take great pleasure in making you "Right".

MZM

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

[b]Like it or not,the heart of terrorist support was in Iraq[/b]

There are still people who believe this? Amazing!

And Americans who don't study global history are doomed to repeat the mistakes of others.

"Maybe that different perspective is something one doesn't have if one is from Australia, a nation who's heritage is that of descendants of penal outcasts?"

I'm Irish, just living in Australia. And since you're wondering, I don't respect the Australian PM either, because he doesn't listen to his people, he just does what the US wants him to do. However, since he's not a danger to the rest of the world I don't really get worked up by him.

"You dishonor our men and women fighting and those who have given their lives to protect you and your way of life, not to mention protecting, defending and preserving the Constitution of the United States of America."

And Bush honours them by refusing to attend their funerals, sending them to die based on lies and refusing to allow the media to photograph the true cost of his policies? These guys are dying for "freedom and democracy" but the President of the country which claims to be the pinnacle of "freedom and democracy" couldn't give a toss. That's why I posted the photo.




WebSwim,

And your point is?

Like Bin Laden and Saddam weren't a danger to the rest of the world like Bush is? In your honest opinion?

I think that says a lot in itself! Maybe it explains it all!

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Ben Cline


Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.

I'm not with you? Which post are you referring to?

"What was 9/11? The World Trade Center?"

I thought that was an al Queda attact and an act of terrorism.

Don't get me wrong, I fully supported going into Iraq when we did. (Partially because I chose to believe some things which appear to have been false.) I've got a couple issues though. Bush characterizes the war as "central to the war on terror". Could someone, anyone, please demonstrate how Iraq has been involved terrorism? Second, I can't stand our willingness to give the rest of the world a diplomatic f-you at every chance we get.

So which is it, Iraq has WMD, Iraq is in cahoots with al Queda, Iraq is a destabilizing force in the region, or we're in the business of deposing dictators?

If we're really trying to fight terrorism, then why is only less than 5% of our deployed military force in Afganastan? Why did we take such a half assed approach to Afganastan at the outset of the war? (I mention Afganastan since the state has long known to be a terrorist haven.) Why do we ignore Iran? Unlike Iraq, we have proof that the Iranian govt actively funded, supports, and provides safe haven for al Queda?

Why can't the administration provide a straight answer to tough questions? I don't want us to pull out now. I'm just tired of being lied to. Lets be open with why we're there, and lets not try to do everything ourselves. We've already shown that we suck at managing the "peace"

<<Okay, get ready. Here's my two cents. I just can't sit this one out. >>

That was a very well done post, Ben.

Brett

Im curious as to how dubbya has the power to keep Dover AFB photos from being taken? Sounds like some sort of freedom of speech infringement.

I see youre not a fan of "diplomacy", "Do you think we can solve this by 'trying to understand why they hate us so much'?" yes, actually thats exactly what we should be doing. If we dont it will never stop. We could kill every man in Iraq and still their children would kill our people. Look at Israel, if you meet terrorists with war, they become more powerful, but of course, you dont appreciate this. Who does Osama Bin Laden want as the next pres? Well, since Bush has been in office, the ranks of Al Quaeda (sp?) have been overflowing because now that we are invading muslim countries, former moderate Muslims are become fanatical. Also, bush's actions have distanced himself from his international allies, making us even more of a sitting duck, and giving further support to his cause. So, i think Osama has exactly who he wants in office. Also: "Ask any Marine if he believes in his mission and then ask youself if you really "support the troops"." Does not make sense. I support my troops because they dont have a choice, they are sent into war with orders. But, i do not support some of their missions (i.e. take over iraq without any postwar plan/coalition), which have nothing to do with them, these come from the president. Hence, i dont support the war, but i do support the soldiers. I dont care whether the soldiers believe in their mission, in fact, i dont think any of those guys can form a real unbiased opinion of what to do in iraq, getting shot at tends to skew your thinking a bit. But, at the same time, i think they are doing the best with what theyve been told to do.

Actually, the iraqi regime hated radical islam, that was the reason for the Iran/Iraq war, they were afraid the religious radicals from Iran would take over Iraq. Saddam punished many groups we considered terrorists, because he considered them destabilizing and revolutionary forces within his own country. In fact, iraq was quite a stabilizing force within the area, especially with all the factions that hated each other. Still, mainly due to human rights violations, i support the ousting of Saddam, but wish the president waited until he had a post war strategy, because while he was coming up with one over the past few months, our soldiers were dying. While you think war and death may be "cool" and its fun to "kick ass" (are you 14 yrs old?), i dont think so.

WebSwim: I agree we should see those bodies come home, but not for the reason you do. I think we should be there and that we did have a right to remove Saddam. I think it is important that everyone understands that we are at war and it is serious as it gets. We are at war with people who hate us and will kill us. People need to be reminded that there are people trying to figure out how to hit us (and other countries) again while we are at Starbucks.

Commiegirl:

"Like it or not,the heart of terrorist support was in Iraq "

Yeah, hidden away in the same place as the WMD's.

I think mojos rambo-esque ruberic disrespects his company more than she did. All shes talking about is his speech mannerisms, which i agree with. i think its speech like his that causes people to think military people are just warmongerors, and thus it is hurtful to his unit and all other units out there. No where did she disrepect his status as a vet. Everyone one wants to be a victim so bad that they look so hard for people "disrespecting" them. She didnt come close. His original post did include a lot of trite phrases, and she was pointing this out. As for the lasts sentence, his original post did suggest that he "gets off" on war, and wants this to escalate to a world war. She was pointing this out.

I read your post as a respectful stance of disagreement and a comment on the mannerisms of his post, but I still take hers as disrespect. The points could have been made without the attacks and spiteful tone. I am not saying that because someone is a vet that they are right, intelligent or have the solution, but IMO the tone was disprespectful and to me it seems as though there is a underlying dislike for the military and those who served.

"Everyone one wants to be a victim so bad that they look so hard for people "disrespecting" them" For the record, I am not trying to paint him or anyone as a "victim" or even defend him. I just want people to show the respect deserved, even if you disagree and if for nothing else, just the service to the country. IMO she should have spent more time making a point and less time with snide remarks.

Could you please utilize this forum to explain to me how getting our asses kicked in Fallujah is going to stop the next attack from a man that is nowhere near Iraq?

Is your real name John Savage or Rush Limbaugh because you are doing an awesome job of quoting their paranoid propaganda?

Could you please post an original thought.

[reply] for 20 years, this country did -0- when we were subjected to terrorist attacks, under Republican and Democrat administrations. A fact that of life that libs don't understand is that innaction emboldens your opponents. [/reply]

what happened when Clinton bombed the al-Quaeda factory ? were you also shouting 'wag the dog' ?

Did you know that the Clinton administration prevented numerous terrorist attacks by al-Quaeda at the millenium ? Did you know that administration considered bin Laden the #1 threat to US security ? Did you know the Bush admin ignored all appeals to focus on al-Quaeda, instead starting planning for war in Iraq ?

The title of the Aug 6 PDB was 'Bin Laden determined to attack' and the presidential response was to go on vacation for a month. Then after 9/11, the response was not to go after the terrorists, but instead to make secret deals with them (Saudi Arabia, cf Woodward's book and 60 Minutes interview) and attack Iraq as already planned.

Now I suggest you volunteer for duty in Iraq. There are plenty of national guardsmen there who have had their tours of duty extended twice - they'll be very happy to have you. I'm sure you will have lots of fun kicking ass over there. Maybe it will be the other way round, though.

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"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

I support the war against terrorists - but Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 or Al Quaeda. I'm glad Saddam is gone, but only NOW are there significant terrorists in Iraq. Not before we invaded. Can you provide any proof to the contrary?