This is a dumb hill to die on for why these shoes should be banned.

So we ban all fast equipment, make everyone use the same bike, shoes, etc. But then there will be people who can afford a coach and those who cannot. Do we ban coaches?

There will always be avenues for advantages. And at the end of the day these advantages are (mostly) in the margins.

Someone with talent who trains well but rides a 35lb Walmart bike, and runs in Payless shoes will be the hell out of someone who doesn’t put in the same work and didn’t win the genetic lottery but rides a $10k bike and wears $200 shoes.

I 110% agree we need to make triathlon easier to get into, or at least break the stigma that you NEED to spend a ton of money. But banning expensive gear isn’t the way to do it. It’s idiotic logic at best.

Keep in mind, these shoe rules apply to elite runners in IAAF (World Athletics) sanctioned events. So for the age groupers, nothing really changes. A guy trying to go from 10:50->10:30 at Ironman Arizona will not be affected by this directly.

I work volunteer for a big running organization. I see the numbers. One thing I didn't mention this was achieved on downhill courses too. Another thing I am fighting. Ugh. Every one wants easy glory

What is it about the Alpha Fly that makes it against the rules?

Multiple carbon plates and a stack height greater than 40mm

I think world athletics got it right. A proportionate and balanced response. A few loopholes in the new rules I can see but probably enough to keep the sport ok until beyond the Olympics.

The AF's sole is roughly 50mm (according to Let's Run) and has (up to) 3 plates, but not confirmed.

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Toro Performance

Idiotic logic? Charming.
My original point was two fold. In my opinion the shoes should be banned because they a) give an unfair advantage and b) are not readily available to all. I stand by this. I went in to say triathlon as a whole is expensive and should be more affordable. Let’s use an example. I’m a competitive age group athlete. I know that to podium/win at age group level (Kona slots/national champs etc) I cannot compete without a carbon aero bike, deep section/ disc wheel, good aero helmet, aero ski suit etc. So if all I can afford is a road bike with clip ons, a cheaper tri suit, normal helmet then I know for a fact that bloke who is similar ability to me is gonna win comfortably. I don’t know many other ‘self propelled’ sports where money makes such a difference. We can never make a completely level playing field because, yes some people can afford good coaches, better diets etc but at present the line is drawn in the wrong place. ITU/MDot could do more, that’s all I’m saying. Not what some people want to hear because triathletes are generally quite wealthy and love their tech.

NEWS FLASH- Triathlon is a luxury hobby. It isn't a necessity. In fact the same can be said about any hobby. Saying they aren't readily available and whinging about level playing fields for all of $250 is pretty silly though. What's even sillier is comparing it to cycling where you've just made a $250 outlay for a pair of magic shoes seem like an absolute bargain.

Ugh, you're just not getting it.

At IMFL I rode a creaky aluminum road bike with clip-on aerobars, a random sleeveless trisuit I've had floating around for a while, and a cheap aero helmet I got on clearance to a top 100 overall bike split. Where I spent my money on was a direct drive trainer, a bunch of money on upgrading my pain cave to keep me sane, good nutrition, and a solid training plan. Then it was a bunch of hard work. Yes clone me before the race and put the clone on a P5X with all the bells and whistles and my clone wins. Nobody is disputing that. But clone me before I jumped into my training plan, giving the clone the P5X but taking away the training equipment and giving him garbage nutrition, and let me keep my creaky road bike and sweet pain cave...I win. Every. Single. Time.

It's the dollars spent in training that make a triathlete fast, not the dollars spent on race day equipment. Not by a long shot.

If you want to make the sport appear more accessible, start up a race where only non-carbon bikes are allowed. I bet you would get a lot of experienced triathletes excited for a race like that to be honest. Start up a race that only allows new triathletes. (We have one of those here where I live and it's massively popular.) Become one of those Instagram influencer people by being the "poor triathlete" or something like that and show how you can have successes and enjoy the sport without spending a fortune. That's all great and I encourage things like this to help the sport grow. But advocating equipment be banned because it's too expensive and always sold out is not the way attract more than a small handful of people to your cause.

“Yes clone me before the race and put the clone on a P5X with all the bells and whistles and my clone wins.”

Who’s not getting it? Let’s just leave it there.

Would be interesting to know how much of an advantage does the Alphafly (banned) provide compared to the Next % (not banned).

Seems that for Kipchoge it didn't provided that huge advantage compared to Vaporfly 4% that he used in Berlin, considering all the other advantages he had in Vienna besides the shoe. We would never know how much % of those 2min difference were actually from the shoes.

Yes, 4 months before !

Saucony will need to advance the launch date of their Endorphin Pro (now planned in june)
Brooks planned some announcement in February for the Hyperion Elite
New Balance Racer : prototypes used for years... release date ?
Adidas : several prototypes spotted... release date ?
ASICS same ?

Even though it’s now banned at the elite level, I do hope Nike releases the Alphafly (probably will be over $300). It’s been an exciting time for shoe technology, hope these rules don’t kill advancement.

I think you're over-stating it. Give me $2000 and I can get you a bike good enough that it's extremely unlikely to ever be your limiting factor. Basically lower than the travel budget for the championship races you're talking about.

There's a wide gap between tech culture, and actual tech benefit. If you read this forum every day you might vastly overvalue the relatively marginal gains of expensive things.

https://www.believeintherun.com/...s-nike-alphafly-ban/

Makes sense

Stupid article written by a stupid Nike fanatic ("Nike haters"....). The guy is nuts. So many stupidities in the article, it will take 10 article to dissect them. A sort of BS eruption :-)

Yes, Nike will possibly deliver an Alphafly (or whatever the name) for the Olympic.
And probably Kipshoge will win the Olympic wearing them.
And probably many peoples will spend 300€ to buy them and run 4h marathons.
So it will be good marketing.

But they will be limited to 40mm, and a single plate.
So basically it will be a Next. With different colors, different marketing gimmicks. But.... just another 4% or Next.

And several other brand will propose equivalent shoes, with same level of performance, probably more stability, and much less expensive.

The Olympic will be fair race (if everybody goes through real and frequents antidoping controls).

And I will buy a competitive shoes at a reasonable price. While some others will still masturbate on their 300€ new Nike :-)

"but look at footage of races from the late eighties/early 90’s. Basic bikes, trunks/vests, basic running shoes. "
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There is an interesting quote: "Nothing is the same as it used to seem to be." That means that for all of us memory is selective, or poor, or distorted with age. You appear younger than me so I will eliminate the latter.


The "arms race" and human need to progress is much older than all of us. I remember racing in the very early '80s and was poor as could be. I missed a lot of patents e.g. We bought cheap foam rubber to put on our (very) old style handle bars to experiment with laying our elbows down for comfort, aerodynamics, and to take the pressure off our back. That was evolution and it continued with aero bars, which have continued to evolve.


We were all broke but somehow managed to find a source to order race tires from Europe that were supposed to be faster. These cost cost more than the tires on my 1976 Toyota Corolla that I was driving at the time. BTW, that car had crank windows and no AC. Then, a friend was going to a bike show and said he would look for a deal on a bike for me . . . 1983ish. $1300 later I had not a penny left in my pocket, but a Euro race bike with Campy components that cost more than my car was worth; but, it was faster. We experimented with clothes, transitions, accessories . . . you name it A bike shop got in the very first HED disc wheel . . . could they "sponsor" me by letting me use it on race days??? Man was that 2000g wheel fast! Nike came out with the sock racer that had no out sole. They only lasted a race or two, but man were they fast.


I remember when we cut the underwear band out to use it as a race belt (should have patented that too) so we would be faster and not have to slip a shirt on with the number pinned on anymore. Should they have limited what we were doing? In my first tri we leaned bikes against a tree in the park for transition . . . you had to get there early to get a tree. Then, they came out with transitions racks and race fees went up because expenses went up (racks cost more than the tree that was already there) .

We fiddled with and tried everything . . . and still do. We replaced the hardware on our bikes with aluminum so it would be lighter and faster. That was big money to me at the time. Harold Robinson (Stretch) showed up with his Trimble bike (more storage than a P5X) . . . we all wanted one b/c now he was faster. So, we found flat tubed bikes. A guy named Dan Empfield came out with a bike with 26" wheeled bikes and guess what we all got! Then titanium. Then, oh my gosh . . . some how carbon fiber got freed up from the aerospace industry and Kestrel and others started shaping their tubes even more. The innovation and progress were insane . . . full on tri-arms war!


Ah, those good old days when there was a level unchanging playing field . . . nonsense! That is either selective or poor memory.


Now, I am slightly improved economically; but, really nothing has changed. I piddle around with my P5D all the time. Just last week playing with the valve stems on the 858s (to be slightly faster of course), changed to a "faster" tire on the Sub 9 disc. And, oh, the Next % . . . I must have tried four or five different combinations or elastic laces and lace locks, because, you know, I just can't stop looking for that next little advantage.


Yet, as I begin my 39th consecutive year of racing triathlons it is all still the same. Just trying to figure out how to keep my old carcass in shape and moving as quickly as I can (even though that definition is slow down more slowly). I will keep fiddling and looking for more speed, more enjoyment, fun with friends, and continue to evolve as a human and an athlete. Just like back in your described good ole days.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Joss: by this logic you would need to ban (at least) any piece of equipment that costs more than $250. This probably means just about all bikes and most wetsuits....

Sport for all?

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

Actually the new rule will put all the other brands behind Nike yet again. The Alpha Fly (Not the version Kipchoge ran in but one with a single carbon plate) will come out in time, will be legal and will be better than the Next % or at least that’s what folks are saying. All the other brands had the 4% and maybe a short view of the Next % before they could really plan on production. Since the Olympics are in August the shoe companies that had a June release of their shoes with carbon will now need to fly shoes in early to make the 4month window. That means if your planning to be in Boston, you’ll probably be able to purchase any one of the new shoes.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

Ya Dave, I saw that info after I posted what I thought would happen. IT still may come to pass, just puts a lot of pressure to get some shoes to market. Not sure what that entails exactly, do you just have to have them in so many stores, or have so many sales, what is the bar for that??

I'm not on his side, but that's not a reasonable interpretation of his logic.

I think the wording is “released to the market and available to the public for 4 months” How the brand chooses to release a shoe is still up to them. The original Vapor Fly 4% was allocated across the world. Knowing how difficult it was to make and how much demand they could drive they simply made sure there was more demand than shoes available.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

Thanks for the response. I actually think it is a very reasonable interpretation of the OP. (He said basically that the shoes should be banned in part because they cost $250 and that the sport is too much for the middle class and wealthy) He hasn’t objected to my post but I certainly welcome it.

I would however like to hear why you think it’s unreasonable because I’m sure like in most things in my life I probably missed an important angle.

Thanks!

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

I think the wording is “released to the market and available to the public for 4 months” How the brand chooses to release a shoe is still up to them. //

Well then maybe it will get tested this games. I can see some new shoe hot off the waffle iron, make a couple 100 pairs in house(avoid Asian lag times), and put a few in a 100 different shops. I would imagine there might be some protests if that were to happen, perhaps even a challenge. But of course that would probably be after the fact, and only if Nike's got pummeled in some events they were slated to win...


I can see all sorts of loop holes that you can drive a truck through on this one..