Lets not start argument this again...

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone thought this was a non-issue. It's not sexy like a new carbon fiber bike frame or the latest disc wheel technology, but it's even more core to the sport than the latest gimmick. There's a triathlete inside of everyone. It's getting people to realize their own potential though dietary modification.

I did not set out to start an 'argument.' On the contrary, I want to get information out to people who others admire and respect, the healthy and fit adult athlete so that they may share it with others. I understand that triathlon is a solitary race, but I can't idly stand by and watch a select few enjoy the fantastic wonders of health and fitness while others only dream of it.

We seem to be exceptions to the rule, not the norm and that troubles me greatly. For the past 20 years we have been desensitized to the problem of obesity and now people who are severely obese - those that are about 100 lbs overweight - is growing quickly, One person in 50 is whats being reported. That's insane!

With this growing population of America is something that we can't avoid, increased health care costs. Roland Sturm, senior health economist at the Rand Corp. states "Health-care costs for a moderately obese person are $1,000 more per year than for a normal weight person, but for a severely obese person the costs are $4,000 more per year than for a normal weight person. People like you and me end up footing more of the bill for these people because we use the services less. For more, see http://health.yahoo.com/...b=s&p=id%3A48250

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Sean

"If that's the case, then go after those obese people! It would be more appropriate, anyway. I'm sure people can lose weight using Atkins, but I don't think it is the optimal diet for the triathlete. "

Can it be put any better. No-one seems to debate that you can lose weight on Atkins. This 'new study' found that fat peole can lose weight. There are so many different weight loss diets that all work. Losing weight is not hard to do - it's called discipline.

If you are looking fora balanced view try searching for the problems of a high protein diet. You'll find much more articles and different issues other then 'I can lose weight on a high protein diet' type stuff.

I also agree with jawlew, I think you're on the wrong forum for your intended purpose.

I agree that obestiy is a problem. Intersting ins't it that if someone (general population) falls below a Body mass Index of 20 (yes I know it is not accurate reflection for athletes) then their Dr would show concern that they have an eating disorder and try and get them counselling and further profesional help - maybe even book them straigh into a clinic. But at the other end it is almost seen as healthy to carry a 'few extra pounds' and no-one really bats an eyelid at someone who is 50 pounds over weight.

Yes I too am regretting this post - dead end.

and dude, lose that lame-a$$ signature, wouldja?

"dietary bondage", and "shackles", indeed. how insulting to anybody who actally has suffered from oppression. your assertion is that people are oppressed because they eat too f-ing much ? modern day me-too self victimization, at its finest.

ahem......... PORTION SIZE ( now where are my bestseller royalties? )



...somebody say something about regretting a post?

It's my understanding that for every gram of carbohydrate stored in the body, there are a few grams of water bound to that carbohydrate. On the low-carb diet, I understand that this can (does?) have the effect of depleting the stored carbohydrate, and thus also removing water. How much of the weight lost by the subjects of this study was water weight? I'd like to see a comparison of body fat percentage lost by the groups.

Ken Lehner

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Interesting story about William Banting, an earlier promoter of low carb -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/09/14/ndiet14.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/09/14/ixhome.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=61349

The moron didn't even charge for it.

Leaving contradictory studies out of it, the most telling thing to me is if it's so effective and been around so long where are all these fat people coming from?

OK, this is my first post and I'm sorry that I feel compelled to jump in to such a charged thread.

I agree with other posters, the criticism of high-protein diets has not centered around their effectiveness for weight loss (they work for that), it is about their potential dangers.

I have first hand experience of this; having been subjected to Atkins the first time around (the 70s) as a teenager, I ended up with serious kidney problems as a result. In a physiology class later in life, I came to understand why. Excessive ntrogen (from all the protein) is hard for the body to metabolize.

One of the reasons that this debate gets so heated (and this is not the only forum this shows up on) is that it seems sometimes that the Atkins folks are evangeliists who brook no critical view of these diets. Why is this? Why do they not even address the potential downsides?

I am afraid this is because of the dangerous cultural "flip side" of the denial that leads to obesity in America: our obsession with thinness. It is a myopic view that thinness is valuable at any cost.

Obesity (and a sedentary lifestyle) is a serious problem that must be addressed in the US. Any approach, however, should be safe, gradual and sustainable without the risk of serious mental or physical health implications over time. I think that it may turn out that a few extra pounds carries less risk than those posed by a constant flirtation with ketosis.

At 23 I was fat, sedentary, and addicted. At 42 I am in near optimal physical condition and I strive to have healthy habits in all aspects of my life. This has been (and continues to be) a process, and, frankly, has resulted in a fundamental change in
who I am. There are no shortcuts, and any offer of one should be examined closely and critically.

As far as I am concerned the jury is still very much out on Atkins, and the potential risks are too great for a person striving to be healthy to assume.

Flame away.

Perhaps it's my delivery of the message. If so, suggestions are welcome. If not, then this is what I see: generally open-minded people who have closed the door on alternatives to mainstream thinking.

I don't expect everyone to get on the bandwagon, absolutely not. I just hope that I can give people information to make an informed choice. To let them know that they have one more card to play before they fold. That's all. And if someone has already been dealt a good hand, but knows others who haven't, then they can let these unfortunate people know that there are options. I'm not 'religious' about this subject at all. I just feel that support isn't being given to those who need it because of uninformed biases.

I'll comment more, but now it's off to purchase a new mountain bike!

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Sean

From what I understand is that:

1) there were TEN people in each group

2) there was NO mention of any activity, if any

3) the "low-fat" diet is insane- it is utterly loaded with simple carbs and sugar

I know if I posted comments on a study of 21 people eating a vegan diet and drew conclusions off of that I am sure I would be flamed right off the board- If I compared a vegan diet to the crap they served the "low-fat" group and said "SEE!! LOOK!! I am right!!" I would be verbally attacked- and I would have to say rightly so.

The study is too small to justify anything. The low-fat diet is ridiculous to compare to-

sighhhh. dude, listen to yourself. prattling on about "uniformed bias" and "one more hand for those that need a new deal..." and the ever popular " closed minds of mainstream thinking".

for God's sake man, you are talking about a popular bookstore diet, not a new understanding of the Universe. and, it is a wacky one at that. come off the persecution cross, we need the wood. yes, i said wacky. billions of people over all time have eaten gobs of carbs and never been fat, or lost weight , or whatever. atkins is nothing special, it is a goof ball way to eat and live and tends to make zealots out people. some of them are skinny. whatever.

look buddy, if you lost those pesky lbs with atkins that is great. but understand, had you actually followed richard simmons plan you would have likewise lost those same lbs. so leave it be - one thing i admire about the grapefriut diet is that its followers never turned themselves into martyrs. eat a gol-dang plate of spaghetti, and maybe you will not think the " mainstream whatever " is out to get you.

Yes! Thank you. Neanderthall men were on the Atkins Diet long before anyone of us were thought of...so the Atkins diet is not new. Last week, I heard someone order a burger from wendy's while in line. She asked for it "without the bun". I almost pissed my pants laughing. It's so insane.

Triathlete's who follow the Atkins diet need to get their head examined and then be put in an assylum and never be let out. I read somewhere, I think it was in Nutrition for Endurance Athletes, (I forget the Author) that 90% of all endurance athletes have an eating disorder of some sort. It's so crazy.

One thing I have always wondered about the low-carb diets is what do you do for race day nutrition? Sports drinks, gels, ... are all high carb. I haven't seen anything at an aid station high in protein or fat.

Don't get me in the habit of posting again.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

 A controlled carb program (CCP) has carbs, just fewer of them. My race day nutrition isn't completly dialed in (get to that in a second), and find myself still thinking as before at times.

I used (before CCP) and still use Hammer Nutrition Sustained Energy flavored with Hammer Gel on the way to my events after a breakfast of Trader Joe's California Complete Protein bread (1 slice-8g carbs), some nut butter (3-5g carbs) and coffee or tea. Two scoops of SE have 50g carbs plus one 2 tbsp serving of HG has 22g carbs. So 88-90g of carbs before race. During, depending on the event, I'll use water and gels. This is where I think theres a new market for a product higher in fat and lower in protein and carbs. I prefer races like the California International Marathon as they use Ultima Replenisher as their on-course sports drink. I use this as my regular electrolyte replacement beverage as it has lots of good stuff and it's low in carbs (3g per 20oz serving). It wasn't designed specifically for CC plans. It was designed for users to get their fuel from their gel of choice. http://www.ultimareplenisher.com/

As for aid station choices, your right, there are no high protein or fat choices. It would be nice if it was different, but it will take time (if ever) and I'm OK with that. Think about what the triathletes of old ate and drank before the days of high tech electrolyte replacement beverages and engineered fuels.

Thanks for your interest.

Sean (I've been told my signature sucks and need a new one and I'm caving in to the opinions of the few) Jones

Thanks for your comments. Regardless of your views, I appreciate them.

I didn't run the study, but I can assume why they did what they did.

1) Allright, I don't know why just ten people exactly, but I can assume it had something to do with money and not enough of it at that.

2) This makes sense. Here's why - while cardiovascular exercise is highly recommended to all humans, some have to lose weight first before that happens and fat loss occurs with controlled carb diets regardless of activity level. However, fat loss occurs faster if exercise is incorporated.

3) Which "low-fat" diet are you referring to? I went back and re-read the article and didn't see any specific mention what carbs and sugars they used.

If Dan want's me to leave the forum, I will, graciously. It's been a priviledge and it's been fun. I KNOW I'm no Orang Utan. So, until then, if people care to disagree with me, cool. We just choose to think differently.

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Sean

 

If Dan want's me to leave the forum, I will, graciously. It's been a priveledge and it's been fun. I KNOW I'm no Orang Utan. Hey, no need for all that.

t-t-n,

I don't agree with them, but thanks for your comments. And you can take some pleasure in knowing that I removed my lame a$$ signature.

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Sean

I've seen this before and it's quite interesting. Obviously it got lost for quite awhile then dug up recently in response to the low carb choice.

All the fat people you refer to don't use this venerable plan, that's the problem.

My take on obesity is that it's caused because of an addiction to a bodily response. This response is called the insulin response. Insulin is a powerful hormone that causes cells to take up glucose, stimulates the storage of glucose, and inhibits the making of glucose. The euphoria that's achieved is due to the insulin response caused by the ingestion of the food. A greater "high" is achieved when the food consists mainly of simple sugars, thus the "sugar rush" one gets from things such as a full sugar soda. The downside is the dip in bloodsugar that happens after the release of insulin. This is the coming down phase of the addiction. And it perpetuates itself so that nobody stops eating. It's a very primal response to allow the human race to survive.

My opinion and personal experience is that when blood sugar levels are controlled by eating foods low in carbohydrates or foods that have a low glycemic index, the urges to eat are much less (hunger pangs) because one no longer has to deal with the constant shifts in blood sugar levels. It's a pretty incredible revelation when one experiences it.

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Sean

"There are three types of lies: Lies, damned lies and statistics" - Mark Twain

You need carbs to function.

We've beaten this to death, and the facts aren't going to change. Atkins is deadly, and anything that supports it is going to be junk science, short term studies. Sure you can lose weight on Atkins. You can also lose weight on bulimia, and one is nutritionally just as bad as the other. There will be "studies" to support Atkins, just like there will be "studies" to support the scientifically vacuous theory of global warming. None of these "studies" changes the truth. There are a ton of opportunists out there promoting the Atkins Diet because:

1- They're making money promoting it

2- There's a sucker born every minute

Sean, I'm BEGGING you, if you won't eat sensibly, at least please stop promoting this deadly plan to the last people on earth who should EVER consider trying low carbs, Athletes.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

I don't know y I'm getting into this, I guess I don't wanna do work yet.

Theres a nice article in Time Magazine this week about eatting. If I remember right it said that some studies do show that you can lose weight on high protein, high fat, low carb diets, but there are no long term studies on its health effects, though most nutritionist think its unhealthy.

Weight loss boils down to this Calories In < Calories Out = Weight Loss. So you can lose weight on any diet, as long as you stick to the principle of Calories In < Calories Out.

Personally I like my carbs, nobody's every gonna take them away from me.

What no one has commented on is that all 3 groups lost similar amounts of weight. With 3 groups of 7 weight loss of 17, 20 and 23 pounds over 12 weeks are essentially the same given such a small sample size. So yes the low carb diet worked but the low fat diet worked equally well statistically. To ferret out if the difference between the groups is meaningful you would need a much larger number of dieters in each group. Intriguing yes. Meaningful not sure? I have people tell me all day long, "I must have something wrong, I eat like a bird and still gain weight". This study seems to show no matter what you eat fat, carbs etc if you really eat like a bird you will lose weight.

David

I want to live forever.

An interview with a professor of Biochemistry and Biophysics U of California and MIT grad from the New Scientist:

http://www.newscientist.com/...LEOBIBNDL?id=ns24171

But for now, caloric restriction seems the one proven way to extend lifespan. Is that why you've virtually given up carbohydrates?



That's not necessarily why I do it. I do it because it makes me feel great and keeps me slender. And I don't feel really tired after a meal. But I think if I wanted to eat in a way that extended lifespan this is how I would do it. In fact, I stopped eating carbohydrates the day we found that putting sugar on the worms' food shortened their lifespans.

How does it work?



I eat a diet that keeps my insulin levels low. So, for example, at breakfast I have bacon and eggs with tomatoes and avocados. It's bit like the Atkins diet. I don't actually know if I eat fewer calories, but I feel great and I weigh what I did in high school. I certainly wouldn't want to be hungry all the time, but I'm not, I'm never hungry. I tried caloric restriction just for two days but I couldn't stand it, being hungry all the time.



What don't you eat?



I don't eat sweets, bread, pasta, potatoes or rice. I actually do eat lots of carbohydrates, just not starchy ones, the ones that turn into sugar quickly in your body. I eat lots of vegetables and salads, and lots of fish and nuts, cheese, eggs and meat.



Enjoy.

Elwood, I respond only because you have made up your mind and that's that and nothing is going to change your mind. Yet you want myself and others to believe/agree with you as well. I don't agree with you, but I do agree with some of your statements such as you need carbs (see below). I could care less if you personally agree with me. I do believe, however, that people have the right to hear different views regardless of whether people such as yourself don't like it.

You seem to keep missing the point that I eat carbs. Just not as many (see previous message in thread regarding race day nutrition).

We've "beaten this to death" as you say because people like you and me have opposing views on acheiving the same goal, yet you want to win. I say let people make their own informed choices. You and me have made ours.

I offer "studies" because that's what some people need. Studies are biased depending on who's paying for them, yet it's an accepted practice to ligitimize theories.

My response to your 1-2 statements is that it's promoted because people believe it and because it works (yes, making money and having "suckers" helps). If it didn't work, I personally wouldn't do it and wouldn't spend another dime on it.

Elwood, I can't and won't stop promoting something that I believe in and may be a useful tool for others because you say so. You do exactly the same thing trying to discredit me and and my views. As I've stated, if Dan want's me to leave, I will. Until then, go ahead and disagree with me.

Just out of curiosity, what if a sports champion came along and won something or did something great while using a controlled carb diet, What then? I believe it will happen. Would you spend your time discrediting them. In fact, There's already been a medical doctor who's raced Ironman on Atkins. Why's he so different? http://atkins.com/...2002/5/28-99286.html

A fat athlete is still fat.

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Sean