A normal person would think that. But Lance has to win and he just lost. Thats unbearable to him.

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Susan Harrell
http://www.endurancezone.com

"He DID orchestrate a team wide, systematic doping program and he DID un mercilessly shred anyone who spoke against him."

I'm not sure that this is completely true nor was it an isolated occurrence in cycling. There are plenty of guys who rode with LA who have come out and stated that they knew nothing of the team doping.


That is the argument I hate the most. The "Lance took drugs but so did everyone else" or "there were lots of guys doing what Lance did" is exactly what is wrong with sport these days and doping infractions in particular. Lance and guys that argue like this refuse to take personal responsibility and just dismiss their acts as part of keeping up with everyone else. It is a cop out and is done simply to mitigate their own guilt.

If Lance wants to come clean he will do it simply for his own benefit and not as an act of remorse. He had numerous chances to come clean but he refused and continues to think of himself as above the laws everyone else to follow. People who continue to dismiss him as just another rider doing what everyone else does need to stop using that lame excuse and just accept that Lance is different because he did not just take drugs and get caught. He deserves to be banned for life from all competitive sports so that people can see the penalty for using drugs. To say he just did what everyone else did is to lessen the impact of what he did.

Having met him and heard him speak in a small forum last year, there are 2 crucial things that would probably figure centrally in any major decision. What would be in the best interests of his 5 children, who are exceptionally important to him

I would think that if I had 5 children the last thing I would want is to cheat in my sport in the fear that one day I would get caught and have to explain it to them. I'm sure he loves his children as any father would but he made the choice to cheat and now has to face the music. If he confesses, it has nothing to do with his kids because he would only confess after he got caught. That takes no character at all.

and how could he return to serious fund-raising and Navigator sponsorship for cancer survivors, about which he is genuinely passionate.


He should have thought about these things before he tried to use cancer survivors to promote his own ego.


I am all for forgiveness and a fresh start but Lance does things for Lance first and anyone else is a distant second. I don't care of people met him at a forum or shook his hand at a fund raiser, you judge someone by their actions and his actions in the past 20 years speak volumes about his character as a cyclist, father and fund-raiser.

Ugh, the Reasoned Decision. Not sure if I even want to go down this rabbit hole. Well, I'm waiting for my pizza so...

The RD (in my opinion) is not the holy grail of Lance's transgressions. It is the evidence that USADA was to present in arbitration to get a lifetime ban. If he went to arbitration perhaps some of it would have been disproven (not 100% sure how the arbitration process works). Don't know. But I do not think that LA refusing to go to arbitration is an implicit admission to EVERYTHING in the RD nor does that mean that EVERYTHING in the RD is the gospel.

Just as someone in a messy divorce who settles without contest admits to ALL the alleged wrong doing the other party purports occurred.

I did read the RD (again 80% or so and it's been a while) and it is what it is. I do not think that LA is innocent (and am not arguing that point) and he did a lot of dishonest things but I don't necessarily believe that everything in the RD is 100% accurate. I think it is likely accurate based on the way the witnesses remembered things. But everyone has an angle. I am not saying people are lying because they are disgruntled (that's pretty naive as well). But witness testimony is just that, biased and often inaccurate. I think it is naive to think that everything went down EXACTLY like the RD lays out. If it did fine but I a pretty big skeptic about everything.

I do think a lifetime ban is excessive. And I do think that if he coughs up some goodies he should get the same as the others who testified.

It'll be interesting to see what comes out of the Bruyneel situation. If anything.

I have heard this a few times and each time I hear this it irks me. I believe it was Lance that influenced the UCI and not the other way around. People are being far too nice to Lance Armstrong when they suggest he was corrupted rather than the one doing the corrupting. While the UCI are presumed guilty of being corrupted, they were not the drug pedallers - Lance was, and he was directing the people around him.


Why the hell it is even thought of to give him a second chance is beyond me. Ask the cyclists and other people which he incorrectly damaged their image whether they had a second chance.

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________________
Adrian in Vancouver

[/quote]

Why the hell it is even thought of to give him a second chance is beyond me. Ask the cyclists and other people which he incorrectly damaged their image whether they had a second chance.[/quote]



Well said.

"That is the argument I hate the most. The "Lance took drugs but so did everyone else" "


No, no, no. I was not doing the "everyone did so why come down on Lance" thing. People are saying that LA needs double, extra, secret probation (Animal House fans?) because he did "so much more" than everyone else. He doped (and helped other interested team members dope) just like all the other dopers and doping teams did and should pay just like everyone else. Just not more than everyone else.

I do not think he needs to be banned for life "so that people can see the penalty for using drugs". If so then all dopers should be banned for life and Garmin would not exist. His doping may do more harm to cycling (although at this point I doubt it) due to his stature in cycling and popular culture but that does not mean that he should have to pay a higher price.

Anyone know who else is banned for life? I'm sure there are some out there.

This interests me the most and is perhaps the best thing that can come out of a confession. Was there a bribe to cover up a positive test? If so, can the UCI be held accountable? I have no idea re its legal status and relevant laws but could a Swiss anti-bribery law take them down? Or could some US law that reaches overseas (or affects US corps doing business overseas) take them down? Probably a pipe dream but I'm sure one of the lawyers here will have a better idea.

Cheers
MDD1997

I don't care who corrupted whom. The fact remains that the UCI is apparently corrupt to its core. That, combined with their lack of leadership, is all I need to want to see it blown apart.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I just want to see him race Kona, I don't give a shit if Tyler Hamilton coaxed him into used PEDs 15 years ago

so when other riders got busted we presume that it was the first and only time they ever used PEDs.

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TriRaceBook.com
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Hawaii Qualification Analysis

Lance admission:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/...rom-lance-armstrong/

Umm... not so much (yes 90's, I know). Again with the "he called people names" and was a "meanie" thing.

Doping is what should be sanctioned. You shouldn't (maybe you should?) sanction A-holeness. If so, then 80% of pro cyclists should be sanctioned.

Sorry for that last bit but as a tri-guy... they are a bit smarmy. :-)

And this is my last post. ;-)

If I contributed in any small way to this, thanks for making my day.

In America we always forget to ask the most important question - have I been sufficiently entertained?

I've been kind of supporting you on this thread for your plucky defence because in some ways I see your point but you are simply running off the rails now. If LA thought for a second he could disprove and of the RD he would have been after it like a shot and there is no way he would have just thrown in the towel....the fact he did speaks volumes......at least to those of us who are not deaf.



This part is amazing, the RD contains testimony from over 20 people (I can't rememebr the exact number) both riders and others around the team and sport. The strories that they all gave more or less aligned so are you suggesting that all 20+ got the story wrong in the same way? Would be interesting to work out the odds of that happening, probably about the same as LA winning the TdF 7 times PED free I imagine.

LA has no place in sport now or never, I don't want my kids to look up to him as some kind of slightly flawed hero, I want them to understand he is a liar and cheat of the highest order. If ever he entered a race I was entered in (and I include Kona in this) I would pull out in protest and make sure the organisers knew why. Sure me pulling out individually would mean nothing but hopefully others would feel the same and the organisers would get the message.

This is a general statement and not directed at you :)

If and when LA confesses and no matter what the ramifications turn out to be no one and I mean no one will be completely satisfied . The haters will hate and the fanboys will support. That's just the way it is.

As far as cycling goes years from now this will be a footnote in history, cycling will survive and the tour will start its prologue on Mars.

PS- as for the haters you remind me of the far christian right demonizing people who sin (while they are bonking someelse's wife)

 
"If I contributed in any small way to this, thanks for making my day."

LOL! Thanks for making my morning. I almost spewed coffee on my screen. :-)

I hope I'm not disappointing you too much but I meant my last reply to this thread, my friend. It seems like it has reached it's logical conclusion. And the weekends over.

Although right now I have cancellation so... :-)

I was really not trying to say that they are all biased liars. By no means. All I'm saying is that under cross examination many witness testimony is found to be lacking and during that kind of examination inconsistencies can be found that often are significant enough to disprove some allegations. Which is why I think that RD is not a 100% true accounting of how things went down. 75%, 80%, 50% accurate. Don't know.

Again, I do not think that LA is innocent nor do I think he should not be punished. But ingesting w/out question the "prosecution" side of things is as naive as thinking that LA couldn't disprove SOME of the allegations.

Did he dope? I think he would be hard pressed to disprove that (unless his hands were too big for his gloves :-).) Are the majority of the allegations true. Likely.

But did he do things that others did not? Absolutely not. Team wide doping was around for a decade (if not decades) before LA arrived on the seen. 1000's of others "peddled" drugs by supplying it to other team members, friends, etc. Other riders had their girlfriends bring them their dope. LA had Motoman. The difference is only in the sophistication not the acts.

My concern is with what I think is the "over reaction" to LA getting busted. He did the same shit everyone has done for decades but he deserves to be crucified while others get the usual punishment or much less. Not so sure.

If you look at this message board, the summary is that white collar American values relative to endurance sport are being applied to a blue collar European sport.

Rather, if we apply the values of doping to play in the NFL, we will understand why some European countries have a lax attitude towards doping. Kids from the farm or factory, will dope to the gills to get a pro tour contract and be featured on live Eurosport TV coverage in the Grand Tour, just like kids from
Alabama or Indiana will dope to the gills to be featured in the BCS championship and maybe get an NFL contract. The guy who grew up in the era of Indurain and Olano just brought his doping sophistication to US Postal in 1999. The American team learned what it took to play in the big leagues of Euro cycling from the guy who learned the game as a rider at ONCE. To think that US postal was the only team that had a "sophisticated program" is BS. Every team of that era had sophistication and access to the stuff. Perhaps Postal was just more organized and professional (as they were in all aspects of their preparation). It's not like Team T-Mobile were saints....Bjarne Riis and Ullrich both won (1996/97) and both have admitted to being doped....Mr. Riis notably known as "Mr. 60 percent"

Today, using our white collar American endurance athlete values, we view a blue collar big time European sport. Now if the American lawyers at USADA can actually succeed in bringing the UCI from more of the WWF camp over to a pure sporting world in the vein of Bannister and Landy, then maybe there is a hope. But as long as some kid in a factory can dope to ride on a pro team and get out of the assembling machinery, or laying bricks in construction, we'll have doping in cycling. How do you take that temptation away from the kids so they believe that they can get that contract playing clean?

Look at the Dmitri Gaag case in triathlon. The option was being a solider in the Russian Army or a triathlon world champion....guess which option Dmitri took? He beat Simon Lessing at the ITU world's in 1999....a few weeks after Armstrong's first win at the Tour.

I'm not saying doping is the right option. I'm saying that you can see how it permeates every pro sport where there is a lot of money and where a kid can get a ticket to the big time. The doping game just happened to change in the 90's with EPO. Before that, you could actually hit the big time without dope with reasonable talent and hard work....after/during the time of Indurain, this became impossible.

I'm actually surprised there are no EPO positives in pro soccer and pro hockey. These sports would greatly benefit from its usage....but no one is testing these guys, but anyone who has played in the 119th minute of a soccer game in a full out sprint for he ball knows who advantageous an extra 5% of aerobic capacity would be. No doubt a few trainers at Premier League, Bundesliga or Serie A teams recognize that. No positive tests at the last 4 FIFA world cups....are you kidding me?

I personally hope that all of this leads to an environment where I kid has a crack to play in the big leagues while racing clean. But while the guys running the top are more like WWF management than the management entrusted to run a clean Olympic sport, I have my doubts, because a freak show always sells more tickets than a clean show. That's what the fan's want to see the pro sports management know what drives revenue....so the management want the freak show to sell more tickets/get more $$$, the kids feel pressured to dope to get a big pro contract to even play in the freak show.

If we step back for a second, who are the real villains here? The guys running the show in the Colosseum on the doped Gladiators in the ring?

Dev

Hey Dev I agree with most everything you said and will add that two other factors speak loudly: money to influence (the NFL regulating itself is no different than the UCI) and most people look to this as entertainment rather than purely sport.

You can also see an example of this in college football. Huge money, self regulating NCAA and most fans are caught up the entertainment factor. Now tell me there is no drug problem (steroids and pain medication).

So I think your observation that these are blue collar crimes viewed through white collar lens is spot on.

Except Im not bonking anyone other than my wife, and I would rather quit racing at all than cheat. Some of us really just cannot stand the cheating and the hypocracy. And it's never been just Lance, no matter what you think. Look at freaking Bettini who surely has confessions of his own to make: http://www.cyclingnews.com/...armstrong-to-confess

I would rather not cheat as well. But in the end each person is subject to their own moral compass (and of course rules, regulations and laws) and how we deal with a situation is not always black and white.

To be so absoulute and certain is to carry a heavy burden. For example, federal income taxes. Most of us think of them as an necessary evil :) but we pay them. However, we are constantly looking for ways to either avoid or reduce them (some legal and some not). Strictly speaking you should report all your taxable income but what if say the IRS does not require a employer to submit a 1099 for under $500? So, what do you do as a taxpayer? Report it on your 1040 and pay the tax or simply not report it? Its a slippery slope for sure.

I just think that context matters (e.g. doping was/is illegal in cycling but it was the norm and not the exception) and that should be considered. So if LA is willing to confess (regardless of why) and this benefits cycling (which is USADA's reason for going back 14 years) then why shouldn't LA ask for something in return?

So if LA is willing to confess (regardless of why) and this benefits cycling (which is USADA's reason for going back 14 years) then why shouldn't LA ask for something in return?

____________

He certainly should/will ask for something in return. Just like what happened with Hincapie, Levi and their reduced sentences for info on Lance. However, the only legal issue I have, what authority does USADA have within the framework of UCI and/or cycling. Meaning, USADA let the other riders face lighter sentences to get the bigger fish in Lance (they had the authority to penalize Lance even though Lance wanted to seem like they couldnt). But can anything Lance bring to the table atually get USADA the bigger fish in the UCI now, or would it just be opening up the shitstorm that the UCI is.

I think this was addressed a page or 2 back, and it seemed like maybe the IOC can be one of the few organizations that could punish UCI in any meaningful way.

So I guess what I'm wondering is, from USADA's standpoint, does it really matter what info Lance has on the UCI?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

devashish_paul wrote:

If you look at this message board, the summary is that white collar American values relative to endurance sport are being applied to a blue collar European sport.

Rather, if we apply the values of doping to play in the NFL, we will understand why some European countries have a lax attitude towards doping. Kids from the farm or factory, will dope to the gills to get a pro tour contract and be featured on live Eurosport TV coverage in the Grand Tour, just like kids from Alabama or Indiana will dope to the gills to be featured in the BCS championship and maybe get an NFL contract.

<SNIP>.

If we step back for a second, who are the real villains here? The guys running the show in the Colosseum on the doped Gladiators in the ring?

Dev

Very good analogy.

FYI, Notre Dame (aka guys running the show in the Colosseum) will be receiving, win or lose, $6.2 million for playing in tonight's BCS Championship game.