ASU continuing to dominant. I wonder if they'll keep hosting the event. The course was pretty fair course with the hill on the backside + dead turn going right back uphill.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Were there only four teams entered, and about 23 individuals in total in the DI event?

I'm guessing that a certain triathlete (who is currently running xc) from Cornell might have been able to win this race...

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----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

D1 and D2 raced in same heat.

D3 and club athletes raced in same heat.

Then all results were broken down so I actually haven’t seen an “overall” result page yet.

There are 2 Cornell girls who likely would have ability to win race but they would have raced as “club” athletes in the lesser competitive heat.

This is also the last year any collegiate club athlete would be able to race. Ncaa will be strictly ncaa sponsored schools moving forward.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

you're about to hear more from that cornell athlete's family, specific to slowtwitch.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Toria Sullivan from Georgetown (who races in all of the MACTC races) raced in the club/DIII heat..she raced the Olympic distance instead of the East Regional Qualifier race so I guess she raced in one of the other qualifiers? Looks like she was the only athlete from the MACTC who earned/was offered a spot

My NC State athlete finished 5th at NCAA's last year and with the MACTC event the same day as NCAA Regionals, I understood it was kinda their way of saying "stay away" (which is good now that NCAA has enough athletes to fill it).

Only other qualifier we would have considered was 1st regional in Tenn but that was when we got hit by a hurricane, and my top athlete (3rd overall in MACTC) isn't an DL focused athlete yet- swim is too poor.


I'm finding out if both heats were "EDR" qualifiers or only the D1 race for the elite card. Or if even these events this year were qualifiers, I didn't look into great detail of it yet.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Brooks ... ASU will continue to dominate until other schools decide to take the sport seriously at all levels. ASU is the only school that has done that form the beginning

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

ASU is also the only school that I know of within the "ncaa" schools that has had privately donated 7 figure donation to "fund" it's program (in addition to any USAT grants it has). That's why you are seeing already the 1st generation of schools that accepted ncaa status- dropping it. Once they lose the USAT grant money, schools are saying "yeah we'll just drop it".

The problem with NCAA is that they are hiring local AG coaches (that's also because they aren't paying the coach much and/or only "part time", who have little concept of what it actually takes to develop DL + the "day to day" office operations. They STRUGGLE mightily at recruiting and so we are seeing schools come and go. "Coaching" is the easy part- it's running a program, and building a program that is hard as hell and the "grind" that I think inexperienced coaches "struggle" with the most. ETA: This isn't the case at all institutions mind you, but I would say overall this is the pathway colleges are doing. It's because they a) cant afford any other way b) AG coaches have little experience with the keys to running a successful program....there is no HS triathlon scene like all other sports where you can "get your foot in the door".....c) these coaches are basically forced to learn on the fly, some are excelling while many arent.

I believe NCAA has already lost 3-4 schools (or will be losing those by end of school year) who originally signed on.

ASU will continue to dominant, and good on them.

So what I'm seeing as an issue- if you cant figure out how to self support your program, you arent going to make it.

University of San Francisco- great university and took on NCAA...so what are they doing with their coaching staff?? Hiring part time coach. (dohhhh) That'll go really well for getting any quality coach for a D1 program to hire someone to live in San Francisco....

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

NCAA decided they wanted to do the race on saturday, and neither LU nor MACTC wanted to do two days of racing...plus the NCAA race was oversaturated as it was, so there was no way club racers could have done the NCAA wave.

All of the other regional qualifiers had spots for club racers though.

I also wasn’t going to send anyone to ncaa’s Across country to Tempe. I took Kaitlyn last year w another CRP athlete as we were going for elite card route (which she easily got). This year I had no one in contention and so I didn’t really care either way if club athletes were being pushed out. That means the ncaa programs are growing enough to fill its own races, a good thing.

ETA: but club athletes being forced into the D3 less competitive race was good decision not to spend money on trip out there. It likely meant no EDR for that race and less quality field (no disrespect to those programs, athletes or coaches).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I can second this sentiment. The majority of schools either hire a local part time coach or someone that's already part of the University staff that has either done a Triathlon or is a "coach". I have seen a few changes in this, South Dakota hired Kyle who was coaching at... well I could never pronounce the name of the school and I'm no longer seeing them as a Varsity program via USAT's page.

I was hired full time at Concordia University Wisconsin back in 2015. I was only the 2nd full-time hire (Cliff English being the 1st). While I had hopes and aspirations of making a wonderful program, it turns out not having a pool and being in Wisconsin isn't a great fit for most triathletes. I would lose out to D1's for the prestige and end up with athletes who were going to the school because of the programs and thought Triathlon was cool. Which is all well and fine, but in general recruiting was A LOT harder than I anticipated and took up 90% of my time. So that didn't work out and I left after 2 years. The program then hired a part-time local coach who was there for a year and after him they hired two members of the University staff (great guys, I know them both, just pointing out that they already worked for the university to prove my above data point).

Not sure how everything will pan out if DI and DII schools keep hiring part-time local coaches. It checks the box for the University to help meet it's standards but from a competitive standpoint and wanting to build high level of competition, it leaves a lot to be desired.

If CU Boulder gets their program okayed in the athletic budget, ASU will have their hands full. I believe Boulder has won more championships than anyone--but correct me if I'm wrong. I just recall how dominant they have been throughout the years with many coming through the ranks--Rudy Von Berg is killing it these days for a youngster.

I dont know if they are looking at it, it seems like so many D1 programs are very anti-triathlon for ncaa. CU has collegiate club champs for sure on basic lockdown. I'll just say that collegiate club champs is so hit or miss, there are honestly only about 8-12 programs that actually care. The rest are a bunch of student led programs (I mean even CU is "student" led; it does have a strong coaching staff- but collegiate club is very student leadership focused). Not to take anything away, CU is the gold standard from the coaches to the student athletes. Of course it's a lot like NCAA tri- it's overall very weak, so if your "strong" you'll keep winning.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

In your opinion, what does it take for NCAA women's triathlon to really thrive? I know right now it's still an Emerging Sport program and they need to a specific number of schools before it's officially a varsity sport, but having the number doesn't guarantee it will thrive. Is it because there is no pathway past that, or funding, or coaching, etc.? I have a daughter who's HS junior and interested in some of the schools. So I am personally very interested.

It’s going to take getting “name” D1 schools on board. Your pac12, ACC type of schools- UCLA, Utah, Notre Dame, Florida State etc.

The ncaa movement is “growing” with schools but is it gaining traction? Idk. I find it troubling the Univ of San Fran wants to hire “part time” coach for its program.

Now here’s the issue. Schools like small D3 schools they don’t care if they are “developing” triathletes. They simply see a way to improve their schools profile. So their outcome goals are likely different than other people’s outcome goal for adding triathlon. So when they hire local coach with no experience they don’t care if it’s a “poor” hire, they just see it as a way to improve their profile. Add in the fact that with the pay rate, locations, resources the coaching pool they are choosing from isn’t all that good.

My good friend quit the Marymount job and recommended me to the AD. Had an interview with them and based on what they were offering I told them “so your going to hire a local random AG coach”.....sure enough that’s what they did and the program completely fell apart less than 2 years later.

But it’s still a fun and trending hot topic, and I think what we are running into now...how to keep ncaa programs around once they take the grant money and their grant funding timeline stops (schools are only grant funded for certain # of years). Because if your only taking this on in part because USAT is partially funding it, your school is in trouble of keeping it.

But I think some programs are run really well but you better be ready to grind and grind in the mud because while glamorous to claim your an ncaa “coach” you better be ready to work your butt off to make it successful.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Marymount leaving is definitely not a good sign, and they are a D3 school, if I remember correctly. U-SF hiring part time coach is also not a positive sign, IMO. I agree with you, some bigger profile schools besides ASU need to be part of the program. I heard rumors that TCU was considering it, not sure if they still are.

Agree in general ... and pretty much my point ( i just didn't provide the detail) but myself and a coupe other colleagues agree its been a disappointing process

Somebody referenced CU? Highly doubtful it would happen there ... they simply do not need the exposure and they already draw enough talent just to their club program.

In my discussion and process with ASU. their hope was with them carrying the flag other West Coast & Pac 12 School would follow ... 4 years later? Nothing

So may items to discuss with the NCAA movement ...

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

I was kinda hoping AF Navy and Army would bring it in since the students are already on “scholarship”, but it seems no interest.

Until it gets D1 traction I think we are putting on a good face on this hugely uphill battle.

But I think it’s a dam, if a few come on I think it’ll get enough 20ish schools to be legit. But is ASU holding the flag until the well runs dry?

ETA: I also think the reason why a D1 school will bring it on vs a D2/D3 are different. From what I am seeing many of these small schools are doing it to bring in higher caliber student athletes....they see triathletes as a way to improve the academics of your school. While a D1 is almost assuredly doing it likely for compliance OR some type of "private" boost. I will admit I had to wikipedia some of these schools, when I would read the press releases, I didn't believe some of the schools even existed.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Because of my background in collegiate athletics I a familiar with many of the schools BUT surprised who has chosen triathlon ... and I agree for the different reasons why schools have chosen to add it relative to D1-2-3 ... As a side note: rosters are very small so schools are not bringing in a lot of athletes

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

Brooks,

You are right in a lot of the things you say here. According to my count tho, there have been two schools which have dropped the sport, Centenary and Marymount. Maybe I am missing the other 1-2 that you mentioned, so please correct me if wrong.

USAT is changing the stipulations to their grants, in order to keep this exact scenario from happening. It also takes D1 schools longer to adopt it, due to different standards of what they want to do to support a program, compared to other programs. So it takes more time for them to jump on board.

There's a lot happening you don't know about, and can't be shared here, but more programs are coming. Yes, I am frustrated about the coach hiring decisions as much as anyone, but it's what we have right now. It really means there's a lot of great opportunities for programs who maybe don't have the best facilities, etc, but hire the right coach.

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Jim Vance
http://TodaysPlan.com.au (Disclosure: I am contracted with Today's Plan)
http://www.CoachVance.com/
Twitter @jimvance

I'm a high school tri coach in So Cal. I can't ever see it taking off at the high school or collegiate level for a variety of reasons: (here are 3 of many)

1. Money - it's expensive
2. It's not a high school sport (in CA, it's not CIF)
3. Very few college opportunities/scholarships vs traditional sports

Some would argue that NICA (HS mountain bike) is taking off and it has the same issues listed above. I would say yes it's growing but of the HS near me, none have a mtn bike team. At least they have NICA, triathlon has nothing. USAT offers zero support at the HS level. Triathlon would need it's version of NICA to get something going at the high school level. Even then, back to point #1 above.

CIF (California Interscholastic Federation) reports 47,000+ girls play HS soccer in CA in 2018. For all girls sports in California, 350,000 played in 2018.

Again - 350k girls played high school sports in California in 2018.

Number of girls who raced at the USAT Jr Elite Nationals in 2018? 63. How many were from California? One.

Potential? 25,000 girls ran XC and 31,000 girls swam in high school in CA in 2018. We managed to get 1 to USAT Jr Elite Nationals.

Road Cycling? I checked, SCNCA (USA Cycling's So Cal association) girls 13~14, 15~16, and 17~18 had a grand TOTAL of 5 individuals participate in the road race state championships. Not 5 in each cat, all three cats combined had 5 girls racing.

Maybe I'm just being negative.

I think USAT is starting to support HS racing and if your in So Cal you’ll like HS nats in Tempe in 2019. It’s only it what it’s 3rd year of actual HS racing. But it’ll never “take off” because it’s too restrictive. Same reason why tri overall won’t take off- 50% of population is already cut off before you start even mentioning the sport.

I personally don’t like the HS event attached to such an early season championship but then we also have late summer JE so yeah I can go with it. Here in Nc we had our “state” champs 2nd weekend of March......

But back to ncaa I still worry about schools that take it on and leave after the grant money is gone. IE- is USAT going to make them pay it back? Ok it’ll likely mean you can’t pick it up to begin with.

I’ve spoken to ACC AD and she said no before I even finished my sentence. I asked her why? She told me st her school they are less than 70% at funding the required scholarships even now so adding a non-rev sport with little potential to run itself is out of the question. And this was a school that has top 15 overall athletic dept ranking of all its sports.

It’s hard af to bring on D1 and I think it needs that tidal wave to truely make it.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yes I was very happy to see HS Nats were within driving distance next year. I've already let my families know to put it on the calendar.

To your other points - it all comes back to money right? And as we all know, there is no money in triathlon. A lot of colleges have even been cutting things like swimming and water polo. I remember a few years back when UC Irvine cut it's swim program. Huge D1 school, over 30,000 students, TWO 50m pools if I remember correctly, probably 10+ national level swim clubs within 1 hour drive and they cut swimming. If a D1 school like that is cutting swim, there is zero chance for triathlon.

Examples:
Cal State Fullerton D1 - 40,000+ students. No swim team
Long Beach State D1 - 40,000+ students. No swim team
UC Irvine D1 - 30,000+ students. No swim team

If these schools can't field a swim team, how can anyone expect them to even think of a tri team? Like you said, the AD will just cut you off mid-sentence..."No".

Really the only way to get a program up and running would be to present it to an AD as fully endowed. Coach, scholarships, travel, equipment, etc.

Coaching $100k/yr
Athletes 10@$30k/yr - $300k
Travel $100k/yr
Equipment $50k/yr ($5k/athlete, could be less depending on school sponsorships)
Misc $50k

Total $600k/year budget

That'd be a $12 Million endowment @5% return.

Steep to say the least. And that's for a 10 woman team.

The thing I've always struggled to comprehend is how you can adequately train for triathlon under the NCAA's 20 hour per week rule. What does a typical week look like at ASU or Queens I wonder...

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html