Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold
Quote | Reply
The post about Lactate Threshold measuring devices got me thinking about lactate threshold a bit. I thought I would share some info and misconceptions about lactate threshold.

First of all the term lactate threshold is misleading. There really is no "threshold per se." What we define as lactate threshold is the point at which lactic acid begins to rise rapidly in the blood. It is really the point at which production of lactate exceeds the body's ability to clear it. Think about it this way. Lets say we were exercising at 150 watts and our body was producing and clearing 2 units of lactate per minute. We move up to 175 watts and our body is now producing 3 units of lactate but clearing only 2.5 units per minute. Lactic acid begins to slowly accumulate in our bloodstream. Now if we go to 200 wats and our body is producing 3.5 units of lactate per minute and our body is still clearing only 2.5 units per minute, the rate of lactic acid accumulation will double over what it was at the 175 watts level, even though production went up only 17%. There wasn't a sudden global shift towards anaerobic metabolism. There was simply a slight increase in lactate production that outstripped the body's ability to clear it.

Lactic acid is consumed by slow twitch muscles during exercise, regardless of the exercise intensity. Lactic acid levels reflect the balance between this consumption and production. Fast twitch muscles always produce lactic acid, regardless of oxygen availability. This is because fast twitch muscles have tons of lactate dehydrogenase, the enzyme that produces lactic acid. When you get the substrates and enzymes in close proximity, you get the product, in this case lactic acid. Therefore, the production of lactic acid is a result of recruiting fast twitch muscle fibers, not the result of not having enough oxygen available.

Through training you can increase your % of slow twitch fibers. As a result, you do not begin to recurit the large, fast twitch motor units until a higher intensity. That is why your LT increases with training. That and the fact that your aerobic fibers get more aerobic and better at consuming lactate.

People tend to think of LT globally. The real action is inside of the muscle cell. When you recruit fast twitch muscles, they produce lactate. When you recruit slow twitch muscles, they metabolize aerobically and consume lactate. That's where it all happens. There is no general shift from aerobic to anaerobic metabolism that suddenly occurs. It's all about muscle recuritment and muscle fiber type.

Just my $.02 from my grad. student days studying muscle physiology

Mike P.

Simplify, Train, Live
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [Mike Prevost] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Lets say we were exercising at 150 watts and our body was producing and clearing 2 units of lactate per minute. We move up to 175 watts and our body is now producing 3 units of lactate but clearing only 2.5 units per minute. Lactic acid begins to slowly accumulate in our bloodstream.




Agree with everything except your example and I believe this is why no actual threshold can be identified...

Maintain your hypothetical 175 watts, and the 0.5 unit shortfall in lactate clearance is only a temporary condition. Blood lactate will rise to an increased level, but if the effort can be maintained clearance will also eventually increase and the body will find a new 'steady state' condition at a higher blood lactate level. At this new, elevated blood lactate level, lactate production and clearance are again in balance. This rebalancing process will continue as intensities are slowly increased until ph in the working muscles reaches intolerable levels and therefore force a reduction in power output. Due to this process, an inflection point does not exist. Lactate removal is not a constant.

Practical implication...

Attempts to clinically establish a lactate or anaerobic threshold are probably a waste of time. Stick to practical, time trial type efforts over set time periods to establish usable power and/or heartrate equivalents to a 'threshold'.
Last edited by: JustCurious: Aug 20, 03 11:35
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [JustCurious] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"Lactate removal is not a constant. "

this is a good point...otherwise we would drop back to 0mmol of lactic acid.
It's also why MaxLASS is a more appropriate term
(maximum lactic acid steady state) which suggests that under the max, the lactic acid always reaches a steady state (well the production and the clearance)

Actually on the lactate.com website, Jan Olbrecht (LVL's coach) also suggests that measuring maxlass precisely is a waste of time...
Besides, if after this you use HR as a training guide, you may be way off as it is greatly influenced with
H2O status, altitude, running on trails or road, temperature, wind etc...
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [Francois] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
"Lactate removal is not a constant. "

this is a good point...otherwise we would drop back to 0mmol of lactic acid.
It's also why MaxLASS is a more appropriate term
(maximum lactic acid steady state) which suggests that under the max, the lactic acid always reaches a steady state (well the production and the clearance)

Actually on the lactate.com website, Jan Olbrecht (LVL's coach) also suggests that measuring maxlass precisely is a waste of time...
Besides, if after this you use HR as a training guide, you may be way off as it is greatly influenced with
H2O status, altitude, running on trails or road, temperature, wind etc...
My guess is that the reason he feels precise MaxLASS measurement is a waste of time is that it's probably highly variable from day to day. Depending on diet, hydration, conditioning, state of recovery, etc., I would guess MaxLASS, like HR, is highly variable from day to day for any specific individual.
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [Mike Prevost] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Mike: I love the Tri-Geek spreadsheet. Thanks for that.

But, now that I have your attention, why is it possible for me to improve my Max Power but not my power for long rides?

For instance, I spend about 30 seconds once a ride simply going all out. My Max Power keeps improving and very remarkably. But the 100 mile rides and 2 x 20 Coggan workouts have not increased by wattage by more than a couple of watts in the last year. Admittedly, I was a sprint guy for most of my non-geriatric life, but I'm into my third year and see no serious improvement in wattage at 100 miles. Why would 30 seconds a week engender such rapid improvement, whereas 3-6 hour rides don't build endurance strength and speed?

Are older athletes much slower to build endurance, or are some people simply resistant to increasing the number of slow twitch fibers? Is there an age at which we should stop expecting to improve? :), Duh....

Donate to the Lance Armstrong Foundation.

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
Last edited by: Robert: Aug 21, 03 5:38
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [JustCurious] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:

Mitch Wagner
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [Robert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Robert

Max power and muscular endurance are two distinct physiological abilities. You would probably excell as a sprinter! I am afraid that I am too much of a novice to have any really good suggestions for you. Coach Gordo and Coach Strauss have some great info on improving sustainable power on their web pages. The approach is basically: build strength in the weight room, move to strength training on the bike with hills, then move to ME work by spending time in a big gear and finally, fine tune by increasing cadence. Seems like a logical approach to me.

I would highly recommend "Going Long" by Gordo Byrn. It addresses this issue more thoroughly.

I am in the same boat as you. I can crank up some pretty good short term power (probably from my weightlifting days), but sustained power continues to elude me. I have made some gains this year but the progress is slower than I would like.

Mike P.

PS Thanks for the kind words on the TriGeek Spreadsheet. It was fun to develop.

Simplify, Train, Live
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [Mike Prevost] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Mike: Yes, I spent quite a bit of time lifting in my 30's. And, I am a big gear masher at about 70-72 rpm. I suspect that this business about "changing physiologies", i.e., increasing the number of recruitable slowtwitch fibers, has serious limits and probably varies from individual to individual.

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [Robert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
guys, i wish you would continue this thread. i find all of it very interesting. i have practical knowledge on the subjects but no specific training in the educational sense, except for learned reading.

sv-
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [JustCurious] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Agree with everything except your example and I believe this is why no actual threshold can be identified...

Attempts to clinically establish a lactate or anaerobic threshold are probably a waste of time. Stick to practical, time trial type efforts over set time periods to establish usable power and/or heartrate equivalents to a 'threshold'.

Mitch Wagner
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [bornToRun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This is pertaining to the two threads that I wrote, each one for some reason was deleted, does anyone know why? Dan? anyone?

Well in short I was questioning everyone who says that there is no such thing as lactate threshold, and I quoted a exercise science texbook with references stating that there is such a thing, I was asking people like "justcurious" for valid proof, not just what he believes. Can anyone help me out? I am new to triathlons, I swam in college and have limited text book knowledge, but I still have books with references in them that point to studies published, and I would tend to believe that over someone telling me what the think feel or believe. Are there any coaches on here that could help me or does anyone know of any good coaches that could answer my questions?

thanks

Mitch Wagner
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [bornToRun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm not good at finding obscure reference articles on the web, but I'd recommend adding these to your library if you're really interested in this stuff...

http://www.amazon.com/...s=books&n=507846

http://www.amazon.com/...v=glance&s=books
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [JustCurious] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I will look into these titles, thanks, but going back to my original question to you. What you say you think is true or believe to be true, where can i find the backing? No disrespect, but If I quote you, then talk to an exercise physiologist, cardiologist that understands exercise science ( are there any that actually do) are they going to laugh at me. I would just like the data to back up your claims.

The ex phys book is on order for me thanks!

Mitch Wagner
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [bornToRun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
it's not really that LT does not exist, it is more that the name is not appropriate. not to mention that some authors refer to LT as the point where you start having some physiological development (increase number of capillaries etc...) that was also mentioned in the initial Conconi article (MP stop me whenever my memory fails) as the 2mmol of lactic acid (inflexion point)...so it is even more confusing.

one thing is clear though (whether you enter the LT exists or not debate), what is referred to (more accurately) as max lactate steady state (the maximum intensity at which lactate production equals clearance) is a moving target...it can change dramatically over a short period of time depending on conditions (environment, weather, health)...
Quote Reply
Post deleted by The Committee [ In reply to ]
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [bornToRun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"This is pertaining to the two threads that I wrote, each one for some reason was deleted, does anyone know why? Dan? anyone?"

nothing was deleted. there are lots of posts here, and if there isn't a post to thread it can disappear to a second or third page within half a day. maybe that's what happened.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [Mike Prevost] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
[snip]

perhaps a different subject, but half the studies i read seem to use a nomenclature in which lactate and anaerobic thresholds are used interchangably, and the other half have differing definitions, both of which you refer to: that LT is steady state, and AT is a rate of blood lactate build-up over a given time period (hence AT refers to a workload that can be sustained for a finite amount of time, usually under and hour).

regardless of whether LT, AT, or any other (perhaps arbitrary) term has any utility, i'd welcome any comments on the nomenclature.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
the problem with the use of the term threshold in the nomenclature is that it is misleading as it does not specify threshold of what.

Lactate threshold: direct interpretation would be, it is where lactate starts being produced. well no. it could be the level at which lactate starts accumulating...neither...

anaerobic threshold is even worse: it suggests that before you only use energy derived from the aerobic system, whereas after anaerobic T suggests it is only anaerobic energy.

Each term used hinders the fact that there is always lactate production and clearance, and always O2 and anO2 energy.
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [bornToRun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'd say George Brooks is probably the premier name in the field when it comes to lactate metabolism.

You ordered the right textbook in my opinion. It does a great job of explaining the big picture.

Specific articles? Start with this:

Bergman, B.C., E.E. Wolfel, G.E. Butterfield, G. Lopaschuk, G.A. Casazza, M.A. Horning, and G.A. Brooks. 1999. Active muscle and whole body lactate kinetics after endurance training in men. J. Appl. Physiol. 87:1684-1696.
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [Francois] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The term 'threshold' implies some specific inflection point in the relationship between blood lactate and workload.

Because both lactate production and lactate removal vary with exercise intensity, a specific inflection point does not exist.
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [TheChameleon] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
what is referred to (more accurately) as max lactate steady state (the maximum intensity at which lactate production equals clearance) is a moving target...it can change dramatically over a short period of time depending on conditions (environment, weather, health)...
Body mass can also change dramatically over a short period of time (dehydration, fasting) - but we still consider it a physiological (really anatomical) characteristic of an individual.
I think the whole point is that if it's a moving target, what value does it have in establishing training intensity?
Quote Reply
Post deleted by The Committee [ In reply to ]
Last edited by: TheChameleon: Aug 21, 03 11:29
Post deleted by The Committee [ In reply to ]
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [TheChameleon] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Because both lactate production and lactate removal vary with exercise intensity, a specific inflection point does not exist.
This is not correct: as long as lactate production and utilization vary in a predictable manner with exercise intensity, there could still be a specific inflection point. Since both production and (probably) utilization increase with increasing exercise intensity, that point would occur at the lowest intensity at which production first exceeds utilization.


True.

But if all you can measure is overall blood lactate levels and you can't determine the rate of lactate production and lactate utilization independently, the point cannot be determined in the real world with any sort of accuracy.
Quote Reply
Re: Misconceptions about Lactate Threshold [TheChameleon] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
I think the whole point is that if it's a moving target, what value does it have in establishing training intensity?


The value comes from the fact that lactate threshold is a more powerful predictor of performance ability than is VO2max. Training guidelines are therefore more appropriately based on the former than the latter. Whether it is worth the time and effort to directly measure lactate threshold, or whether simple field test protocols to estimate it are sufficient, is a different question entirely.[/reply]

If you're not really measuring a true threshold, or even if you could measure that elusive threshold it turns out it's a highly variable number from day to day....

Why waste your time with anything more than a field test?
Quote Reply

Prev Next