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Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle.
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Disclosure: I am not affiliated with ERO Sports in any way, nor do I own or sell any product or service of theirs.


I found this resource on the recommendation of a friend who just got a new Dimond Bike (which is awesome). It is a super interesting resource:

http://ero-sports.com/...r-more-comfort-speed

Apologies if this has already been discussed.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the info. I've been tinkering with the idea of angling my aero bars up this winter. My current position is forearms parallel to the deck, which this season seems to be placing stress on my deltoids and triceps all of a sudden. Playing around on the trainer lately if I lift my hands up while leaving my elbows in place I feel an immediate muscular relief.

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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks! I put mine at about 5 degrees up but will be messing with a bit more angled up this winter to tweak my position. The good thing with messing with things over winter on trainer is that if it's comfy on the trainer almost sure it will be on the road!

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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Old news...like 20 y old news (right down the fact that F.I.S.T. reach is too short for minimal drag).
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Season just wrapped up Sunday at Tahoe 70.3. This makes me want to try some different extensions that allow me to angle arms up a bit. The one thing that stuck out was Jim saying it was easier to see forward with arms angled up and a bit more reach.

One frustration I have is that I feel like even though my back isn't quite flat, I still have trouble seeing the road in front of me.

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
Old news...like 20 y old news (right down the fact that F.I.S.T. reach is too short for minimal drag).

Yep, as the article notes, this is nothing new, it practically goes back to the first use of aero bars. What I'm trying to nail down is when everyone "forgot" to angle their arms up? It seems to have been gradual over the years, but I think the final, and big, nail in the coffin was Jan Ullrich in the '03 TdF time trial with his Walser. After that, everyone, it seemed, wanted/needed to have straight extensions, and those progressed to s-bends.

Also, while this works for most, it's not for everyone. There are those who do better with arms parallel or even angled down a bit. It seems to work for "type b" backs rather than a flatter back, and even then we find most are better arms up. But, for those very few, angled a bit down draws the shoulders in very narrow and CdA drops (think Tony Martin). Not super comfortable, but slippery when done right.

I can't preach enough that triathletes need more reach, and angling the arms up requires that much more. We need longer bikes...longer is more comfortable, not less! Don't get me started with the UCI restrictions. I have girls who are 5'2" taking every millimeter of the reach exemption.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [kjmcawesome] [ In reply to ]
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kjmcawesome wrote:
Season just wrapped up Sunday at Tahoe 70.3. This makes me want to try some different extensions that allow me to angle arms up a bit. The one thing that stuck out was Jim saying it was easier to see forward with arms angled up and a bit more reach.

One frustration I have is that I feel like even though my back isn't quite flat, I still have trouble seeing the road in front of me.

Yes, angling of the forearms, especially if you can angle the pads and "lean into" them, "pre-cranes" the cervical spine and relieves the splenius muscles from much of the load of lifting and maintaining the head in the aero position; a task they were never meant to perform.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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With a Blue Triad and the brand stem and bars, is there any way to get some uplift to my system? I have been raising them quite a bit during training rides and like the feel of less arm strain in addition to not being pulled forward down the saddle. Any make overs that could get me to move the extensions?
Thanks!
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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So if you have a base bar where the bars are fixed to the base and you have to tilt the whole setup via the stem do you still get the same benefit at 12 degrees? I ask because the wing part would be slightly tiled up. Think the standard Felt B series basebar. Thanks in advance.
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
So if you have a base bar where the bars are fixed to the base and you have to tilt the whole setup via the stem do you still get the same benefit at 12 degrees? I ask because the wing part would be slightly tiled up. Think the standard Felt B series basebar. Thanks in advance.
As in what the article talked about in the in the last paragraph and table before the Conclusion?

<We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak>
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
kjmcawesome wrote:
Season just wrapped up Sunday at Tahoe 70.3. This makes me want to try some different extensions that allow me to angle arms up a bit. The one thing that stuck out was Jim saying it was easier to see forward with arms angled up and a bit more reach.

One frustration I have is that I feel like even though my back isn't quite flat, I still have trouble seeing the road in front of me.


Yes, angling of the forearms, especially if you can angle the pads and "lean into" them, "pre-cranes" the cervical spine and relieves the splenius muscles from much of the load of lifting and maintaining the head in the aero position; a task they were never meant to perform.
Jim, any idea of the impacts of BTA hydration (not Torhans 30 types)?

<We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak>
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [dmacandcheese] [ In reply to ]
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dmacandcheese wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
kjmcawesome wrote:
Season just wrapped up Sunday at Tahoe 70.3. This makes me want to try some different extensions that allow me to angle arms up a bit. The one thing that stuck out was Jim saying it was easier to see forward with arms angled up and a bit more reach.

One frustration I have is that I feel like even though my back isn't quite flat, I still have trouble seeing the road in front of me.


Yes, angling of the forearms, especially if you can angle the pads and "lean into" them, "pre-cranes" the cervical spine and relieves the splenius muscles from much of the load of lifting and maintaining the head in the aero position; a task they were never meant to perform.
Jim, any idea of the impacts of BTA hydration (not Torhans 30 types)?

Not enough data for anything conclusive, but it's not looking good. Profile Design has their Basebar Bracket that might be the savior there if it fits your bar. I'm planning on testing more in this area Oct 2nd.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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Honestly, I don't see a lot of Blue's come through. I don't think we've ever aero tested with one; however, if the Basebar is fixed, I would simply get extensions that get your hands above your elbows. We've tried angling the pads by stacking Velcro strips between the pad and arm rest on bars that don't rotate, but the numbers didn't look good since we basically built a wall of fabric for the air to hit. Only tried it once, though, so take it for what it's worth.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks so much for the reply. I appreciate your time. I hope to find a solution before next year.

Jim@EROsports wrote:
Honestly, I don't see a lot of Blue's come through. I don't think we've ever aero tested with one; however, if the Basebar is fixed, I would simply get extensions that get your hands above your elbows. We've tried angling the pads by stacking Velcro strips between the pad and arm rest on bars that don't rotate, but the numbers didn't look good since we basically built a wall of fabric for the air to hit. Only tried it once, though, so take it for what it's worth.
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
I can't preach enough that triathletes need more reach, and angling the arms up requires that much more.

Argggghhh!!!! All my best secrets are being given away! If everyone listens to folks like you soon my aero advantage will be gone and I'll have nothing but my crappy FTP to fall back on!

Triathletes: Do not listen to this guy. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Especially if you're in my AG!
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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It seems so obvious when you mention it.

I think that those of us who are doing this in our garages should be using protractor apps to get the angles replicable. It's hard to know just by feel. I'll be testing 10-12 degrees this weekend.

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
dmacandcheese wrote:
Jim, any idea of the impacts of BTA hydration (not Torhans 30 types)?


Not enough data for anything conclusive, but it's not looking good. Profile Design has their Basebar Bracket that might be the savior there if it fits your bar. I'm planning on testing more in this area Oct 2nd.

Question: Does this mean that BTA in general are not good, or BTA with an angled aerobars are not good? Or both?
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the information Jim. Would you expect to see the same results over the different shapes of bar ends (ski, s-band, etc.)?
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Honestly, I don't see a lot of Blue's come through. I don't think we've ever aero tested with one; however, if the Basebar is fixed, I would simply get extensions that get your hands above your elbows. We've tried angling the pads by stacking Velcro strips between the pad and arm rest on bars that don't rotate, but the numbers didn't look good since we basically built a wall of fabric for the air to hit. Only tried it once, though, so take it for what it's worth.

Hi Jim! Any suggestions on angling the armpads for 3t basebars that have integrated stems? Ventus/Ventus II and Aduro. Perhaps using washers or a nut underneath the front bolt would give a significant angle while maintaining stability? Or would cutting/angulating 3t metal risers provide the same benefit? Thanks!
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
Old news...like 20 y old news (right down the fact that F.I.S.T. reach is too short for minimal drag).


Yep, as the article notes, this is nothing new, it practically goes back to the first use of aero bars. What I'm trying to nail down is when everyone "forgot" to angle their arms up? It seems to have been gradual over the years, but I think the final, and big, nail in the coffin was Jan Ullrich in the '03 TdF time trial with his Walser. After that, everyone, it seemed, wanted/needed to have straight extensions, and those progressed to s-bends.

Also, while this works for most, it's not for everyone. There are those who do better with arms parallel or even angled down a bit. It seems to work for "type b" backs rather than a flatter back, and even then we find most are better arms up. But, for those very few, angled a bit down draws the shoulders in very narrow and CdA drops (think Tony Martin). Not super comfortable, but slippery when done right.

I can't preach enough that triathletes need more reach, and angling the arms up requires that much more. We need longer bikes...longer is more comfortable, not less! Don't get me started with the UCI restrictions. I have girls who are 5'2" taking every millimeter of the reach exemption.

All the talk about more reach....what about those with really short torsos.....many bikes are already too long reach or many of us ???
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [aries33] [ In reply to ]
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aries33 wrote:
Thanks for the information Jim. Would you expect to see the same results over the different shapes of bar ends (ski, s-band, etc.)?

This is a great question. I'm going to initially answer from the perspective of those who need to conform to UCI regulations even though virtually no one on this forum need worry about it. When the UCI relaxed the rules on forearm angle in late 2013, the new rule allowed for the tip of the shifters, inline with the extensions, to be no more than 10cm above the arm pads. Inline with the extensions is very important. Ski bend extensions point shifters up and, therefore, get to the 10cm limit more quickly than s-bends which point more parallel. With s-bends, you can angle the arm pads more than you can with ski bends, and provide more support. Make sense?

For anyone who doesn't need to adhere to UCI regs, this is still a valid difference. S-bends keep the hands in a more neutral position as your angle both extensions and pads which, of course, is just the opposite of what they do when parallel. Getting the 15 degree'ish forearm angle is better supported with s-bends than ski bends because the pads angle with the extensions and conform to the actual angle of the forearms.

Then again, it's also a personal preference.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Seriously?? All this industry has done for the last several years is go shorter and shorter. There are few options for long; the overwhelming options are for short reach, which few actually need when fit correctly. Luckily, manufacturers are waking up, and beginning to change back to what the majority of athletes need.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Which is why they will prise this P3C from my cold, dead hands.

For the other guy above, my Felt Devox bars have fixed extension angles and so to be able to keep the base bar flat whilst raising my hands I bought some Use Tula extensions (aluminium) which I mount in reverse.
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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [knighty76] [ In reply to ]
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I'll note that I've been pleasantly surprised at my gains by just going to a longer stem from last year. I think it's also opened up my ability to tuck my head a little lower as well. I estimate I'm saving around 15W @25mph. Honestly I'm still pretty compact, but without wind tunnel testing I'd be terrified to make any more changes at this point. Going backwards is always a distinct possibility. MY extensions are level, but they are ski bends and my arms end up about 5-10 degrees angles up most of the time based on my typical grip. I have small hands so I've cut about at least 3cm off the up turned end.


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Re: Might Be Old News, But: ERO Sports Insights on Aerobar Angle. [aahydraa] [ In reply to ]
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aahydraa wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
Honestly, I don't see a lot of Blue's come through. I don't think we've ever aero tested with one; however, if the Basebar is fixed, I would simply get extensions that get your hands above your elbows. We've tried angling the pads by stacking Velcro strips between the pad and arm rest on bars that don't rotate, but the numbers didn't look good since we basically built a wall of fabric for the air to hit. Only tried it once, though, so take it for what it's worth.


Hi Jim! Any suggestions on angling the armpads for 3t basebars that have integrated stems? Ventus/Ventus II and Aduro. Perhaps using washers or a nut underneath the front bolt would give a significant angle while maintaining stability? Or would cutting/angulating 3t metal risers provide the same benefit? Thanks!


I've thought of doing something similar but decided against it. The underside of the bolt head should make flush contact with whatever it's clamping against. The pad it's holding in place will need to mounted horizontally since the bolt will be installed vertically. Otherwise you create a concentrated stress under the edge of the bolt head at the high side of the pad. I wouldn't trust the fatigue life of that system.

I can't think of a way to do it without specially machined parts.

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Last edited by: santino314: Sep 24, 15 6:42
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