Hello !

Go listen latest scientific triathlon podcast. VLaMax is kinda slower to move vs VO2max, better to work this during winter times maybe.

Great thread and topic !!

As a MD in a university hospital I have a quite straight access to a met cart lab, what would you suggest for a good estimation of VLaMax during a test on a cycling ergometer ? I have also done the INSCYD test for curiosity sake and I would like to understand the physiologic measurement of VLaMax at sub max efforts with VO2 and lactates measurements so that I could compare and monitor changes with Fatmax and medio training to lower my VLaMax (around 0.4 for a VO2 max of 60) with the goal of long mountaneous triathlon > 15h.

Thanks

Estimations of VLamax without the models used by Sebastian Weber and Jan Olbrecht are done at max efforts. Again I used the word estimate. Both Weber and Olbrecht use a model of energy metabolism that is proprietary and one would have to use their models to use sub maximal efforts. Weber is much closer to cycling than Olbrecht who mainly works with swimmers. However, Olbrecht advised the cyclist who broke the one hour record.

So I cannot answer your question. What I know about VLamax comes from the publications of Mader and from Olbrecht and Weber through personal contact and their publications. They are the experts. Olbrecht and Weber were students of Mader at the Sports School in Cologne, Germany who helped develop the concept and Mader is mainly responsible for the metabolism models using the interaction of VO2max and VLamax.

In response to your previous post. From my understanding changes in VLamax generally happen much faster than changes to VO2max.

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Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom

thank you for your answer, I guess I would have to do a max efforts of 20 s and measure lactate before and after
Mader papers are too hard to read for me

About VLaMax kinetics https://scientifictriathlon.com/tts238/#tab-con-2 07:40

Too bad I did my met cart test this morning, I should have asked for a 20 s sprint and lactate dosing. I know that I rest I am at 0.9 (done this morning). At max efforts after 20 minutes of pedaling I was not very high, around 10. but the protocol was design to establish fatmax, So we did a Jeukendrup fatmax protocol (starting @ 95W with 35 w increments which was too hard for me)
So I can speculate that doing a 20 s sprint, if I get 11 of lactate at the ned of it, I would have a VLaMax of 0.505 mmol/L/s which is in the ballpark of my INSCYD test results

And I would be delighted to have a clue on this : is a low max lactate correlated with a low VLaMax ? I worked a lot on lowering VLaMax since @INSCYD measured it @ 0.4 in last October and during my met cart test this morning, my max lactate was 9.7 mmol/L if I recall correctly. I was surprised with this.

Not sure if I could post it here or if I should have made a seperate topic, but since I see a lot of really knowledgeable people in this thread, here goes:

So via a Team Jumbo-Visma competition on Instagram, I won an Inscyd Power Performance Decoder test. Last weekend I performed all tests, seperated over 2 days. ±20" and ±12’ efforts on one day and ±3’ and 6’ on the other day.
At 67.1kg of bodyweight, I got:

20": 857W
2’30": 449W
5’: 365W
10’: 332W

Now the report estimates my VO2Max to be 72ml/min/kg, which seems way too high. My last lab test I came in at about 61-62ml/min/kg at a similar weight. Since I started triathlons 4 years ago, I've always tested (with a gas analyzer mask)/been estimated between 3800-4100ml/min. My VLaMax was estimated at 0.67ml/l/s which also seems really high given that I rarely do efforts <5’ (Olympic/half distance triathlete), except for the occasional race uphill on a group ride. I mostly focus on longer efforts and a lot more LSD/easy rides since I've always been a sprinter type.. I know I’m still a punchy rider but both of these values seem off. They estimated my anaerobic threshold to be 295W which seems right given that I averaged 292W for 44’ in a Zwift TT in April.

So for a lower VO2Max but the same AT/FTP, I would have a lower VLaMax? I guess more in the region of 0.5ml/l/s which is supposed to be similar to that of classics riders and olympic distance triathletes?

What could be the reason there's such a big difference between all of my previous VO2Max results and this one? I suppose it's not possible that I'm already so full of lactate that I can't reach the 72ml/min/kg for some reason? My max. HR is about 176 at age 28 so on the lower side but not sure if this is an idicator of some other limiter.

They calculate that for every Watt you need about 12.5ml of O2, is it possible that I'm more efficient than that and that this means I can reach these numbers with a lower VO2Max?

I've uploaded my report to WeTransfer if anyone wants to have a look https://we.tl/t-zDoOzw7x3u (file was too big to upload as forum attachment)

I'm also fine discussing this further via PM.

Hello,

my VO2max was higher in INSCYD too. But the VO2max value can also depend on the met cart protocol, so I guess there is no absolute truth in this. But I stand with you for an overestimation here. 72 ml/kg/min is really high. How well do you rank in a big 70.3 ? Top 10% for sure, top 5% and closer to podium with 72 ml/kg/min

About VLaMax problem is that there is no published protocol AFAIK to compare with another method than Inscyd PPD

INSCYD usually sells the test via coaches; so that coaches can make the interface and answer the athlete question. A coach might tell you "well, let's work harder on lowering VLaMax and do another test -> $$$" This is one problem with INSCYD test, you can really discuss the results because it's out of a black box and there is not a lot of 1 to 1 responses from INSCYD with such issues. On another side, if you're quite young in the sport and more of a sprinter/puncher it may takes some years to become more of a slow twitch guy.

I wish I could help more

How much off was yours compared to where it would actually be?

I haven't done a big 70.3 yet, I was supposed to do my first Ironman 70.3 this year but due to Covid-19, that got cancelled..

I did one on my own (without the swim) without a real taper in May where I got 2h18' for a mostly flat, 90k ride. And a 1h35' 21.1km run. My run needs some work but I've been injured 2 winters in a row for about 2-3 months with almost no running, this year was my first winter without injury.. My swim should be about 32' for a correct 1.9km course so midpack. I was aiming for a 4h30-40' first 70.3 and I guess I would've been close. But I'm definitely not a podium contender or top 5%. Top 10% maybe. I guess this is also more indicative of a VO2Max of 60-62, although my W/kg numbers for the Inscyd test apparently indicate otherwise. I asked the same question on the Trainerroad forum and I got the reply that those W/kg numbers are indicative of a VO2Max of around 70ml/min/kg.

Quite unfortunate because a lower VO2Max would mean a lower VLaMax (if AT is the same), but then my entire report is "useless" since this should influence all the graphs and training zones and so on..

What powermeter do/did you use for the test?

I just purchased the software and have been playing around with it and a few things that I seem to be finding are:

1. The VO2Max estimation looks to be pretty accurate. It pegs me at ~65 ml/kg/min. I was tested multiple times in college and pretty much always ranged from 62-66. After my test, my Garmin actually told me I had a VO2Max estimation of 70 which I think is too high for me based off my lab data from years ago.
2. The 20 second test is pretty sensitive and VLaMax can swing wildly depending on whether you take 15 seconds, 18, or 20 seconds. In my garmin file for instance, I was only able to highlight 14 seconds of data for some reason. Weber says that 14 seconds is the minimum needed and that whether you take 14 seconds or 24 seconds, "it doesn't really matter." I'm not finding that to to be the case but I'm scheduling a follow-up call with them next week.

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Mark Saroni
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COACHING | TRAINING PLANS
MS Kinesiology | USAT LII | USAC L3

I used my Favero Assioma Duo's, calibrated as per their instructions before every test. My 20" test had 18" of usable data which they could highlight according to the report.

I already had a discussion with a Finnish physiologist who did a comparison test between the Inscyd PPD protocol and some tests inside the lab where he works with full met cart analysis and so on (they posted his blog on the Inscyd website). He ran some of my numbers from previous tests and said my previous results were likely underestimating my VO2Max because of possibile measurement error with a gas analyzer and also the use of different equations to calculate VO2Max and so on.