I'd rather have a plan with less intensity and more volume. say 5 per week: 1x long, 1x tempo / race pace, 1x above race pace intervals, 2x easy

An 18:30 5k definately makes a sub 3 attainable, but how close you are/will get depend alot on how youre trained.

Naturally, the marathon is in the other end of the scale of speed vs endurance. I am in a similar situation as you - I have still not run a sub 3 marathon, but think I should be able to right now! :) (has been a few years since I've been able to race, but got my HM close to 1:21 high so that gives hope of a sub 3:)

As for the training, I dont think there is anything magical of one plan vs another. More important is you general approach to training, and what method you "go for" (iow what kind of training you choose to do). For marathon-traning, my (undeducated) views are:

- Do alot of volume if you can.
- Quality-work should be split in three categories:

Fast intervals - do f.ex 1k intervals faster than your marathon-pace. For your level (18:30 5k), I'd say do 6-8-10 x 1k intervals @ 3:45-3:50 pr k. Dont do them too hard! I am a firm believer in rather cutting back the speed 5 sec pr km, and be able to sustain a few more intervals, than going too fast. If youre injury-prone, be esepcially attentive to these - go slower.

Intervals at race-pace-ish: Tempo-runs, 2k-3k intervals where you run around marathon-pace (4:15 pr k). Some days you can go faster, some days settle for 4:15. I usually do 2k intervalls (3-4-5 x2k @ somewhere between 3:55 - 4:10-pace.

Quality long runs: and this is imo the most important ones: Do long runs with sustained periods of running close to your race-pace. I like doing 20-25-30k runs, where perhaps the last 10-15 og even 20k are close to marathon-pace. You dont have to run 4:15 - but try to get quality-periods of 10k + where you run somewhere between 4:10 and 4:25. These runs take alot out of you, so be well rested going in, and take it easy for 3-4 days after.

I will normally do 2 or 3 quality sessions pr week. If I did a hard quality-long-run, 2 is def enough for me. If the quality-long run is in the easier region (either under 10k of hard work, or a slower pace closer to 4:25 than race-pace), I can do to invervall-sessions + the long run. If the long run is hard, I only do 1 intervall-session.

All other running is fairly easy (anywhere from 4:40 - 5:30-pace, depending on feel)

FYI - I run 70-90 km a week.

I would guess your half marathon times may be a better indicator of marathon performance.

For example earlier this year I ran a 17:high 5k, have done 3 x 70.3 runs this year in the 90-93 minute range (they say your 70.3 run pace is around your solo marathon pace) yet I did London Marathon a few weeks ago in 3:05 and York Marathon 2 weeks later in 3:03 hoping to go sub 3hrs in both.

Since then I have run a 1:25 half in horrific conditions on a hilly course and then this weekend just gone a 1:22 on a good course with good weather. I also ran another sub 18min 5k the week after York Marathon.

I thought I was ready to go sub 3 based on my shorter distance races as well (sub 37min 10k this year as well) but think I need to be nailing a few more sub 1:23 half's before I'll be confident I could go sub 3 again

that were some fast runs, surprising that you did not go sub 3 in the standalone marathon. Any idea why? Have you adjusted your training now?

I will for sure not be able to run sub3 anytime soon but I have never properly trained for a marathon yet, so I guess I will find out if I can do it.

An 18-minute 5k indicates sub-3 potential but you still have to train for it. Running 3 times a week with a ton of quality isn't how I would go after that goal. You can't fake a marathon. You might be able to run a good 5k/10k with training like that but the marathon requires specificity (mileage). I would run at least 5 times a week. 3 easy days going at least 10k. 1 workout day totaling at least 16k -- not a speed session but time spent around threshold. 1 long run in the 25k-35k range. Marathon pace thrown in every few weeks. I would run 6 or 7 days if you can. An extra day would let you have a medium long run day (at least 15k or so, 20k is better). Seems like 3 times/week with a lot of quality is an injury waiting to happen & won't give you enough strength to tackle to last 10k unless you are an extremely talented runner.

If you are shopping for a different approach, here's two

1 simple marathon training by Jay Johnson, quality once a week and sometimes a fast finish long run, includes supplimental exercises right after running

2 Hansen's marathon plan, uses cumulative fatigue and running a shorter 15 mi Max, long run on tired legs

Look at advanced plan here

https://hansons-running.com/pages/training-plans

Simple answer - NO! As others have said, basing a marathon off a 5k time doesn't work very well unless you put in the miles. 3 runs each week sounds barely adequate to complete, let alone race a marathon. You should run 6 days (or probably 7) a week and build the mileage to at least 50 miles a week. I've seen best results when I averaged around 65 miles per week over a 16 week marathon training block. I used the Pfitzinger training plans with pretty good success - based off this book.

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If you are running easy at least 3 more days during the week I don't think it's unreasonable.

Your 5K pace is under 6 min/mile and your M pace is just under 7. With adequate recovery this is all possible, and if it isn't for you, just run the quality days easy.

Thanks for the reference. I'll look into it. 65 miles per week is quite impressive and is about 4 times the milage I currently run per week. I think there is a lot of room for improvement for me, given my low running volume but I have to figure out how to approach the marathon without killing myself. Luckily, I am not really injury prone....
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At the mileage you stated, no I don't think it is a good idea. I (incorrectly) assumed you were running significantly more.

Thanks!! The Jay Johnson book looks interesting. I'll look into it!!

He lays out his whole philosophy and weekly plan in 45 minutes here, see if it grabs you.

https://podcasts.google.com/...Tc5NjVkMjFmM2I?ep=14

You don't state what your training looked like to attain your 5k time. Just because your fast for short race doesn't translate into a fast marathon time if your not putting in the work for that longer race. If your struggling with these workouts that's telling me your training volume/intensity was way to low before starting this plan.

Your assessment is likely correct. I have been averaging about 15 miles per week this year spread across 2-3 runs. Over summer I did some longer sessions in the 120 min ballpark but not on a regular basis. Based on the comments here, I should probably start to run more first and only then think about the faster running sessions....

You def need to work on bringing total volume way up with a session or two of speed and then worrk on the longer speed sessions. You are months if not a year away from beginning serious marathon training without high risk of injury. Have you ever run a half or full or just shorter stuff?

Agree what others have said. First thing you should do is forget that plan and run 5-6 times a week. Get used to the new frequency/volume then add in 2-3 workouts a week with some tempo, strength, MP work. But I’ll go ahead and say you won’t go sub 3 off of 20 miles a week running only 3x a week. You can’t hide in the marathon so you’ll need a lot more running yo finish without too much pain let alone run at a 6:52 pace for 26.2 miles.

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I mostly do 70.3s so I have run a few half's as part of 70.3s. I did a 50k Trailrun this year, which I obviously did not properly train for and I have not run a marathon in ages (2012 was the last time). So I think I will def. need 6 month for a proper marathon build.

Good luck if you plan to run the full in the spring. A couple years back I had decent volume and crushed my 1/2 pr in late summer so decided to train for a sub 315 early spring half. I was well trained at that point but as soon as I turned it up i was injured. Needless to say I didn't accept the injury at first and kept training. Never got arounf to the full in the spring. Pretty much switched almost exclusively to trail/ultra running after that. Way more satisfying to me.

Well as expected, everyone here is lining up and telling you to run more mileage, and slower. And maybe they are right too, no way to know until you try each program and see what gets your best results. I was on the other end of the spectrum, and did all of my lower mileage(about 40 to 45mpw)at race pace average. I ran about 5 times a week, but each and every run would average my goal pace. Start out a minute over, finish a minute under. Or just get on the pace after a few minutes of easing in, and stay there the entire run. Did one 3 hour ride a week to get some distance work in, but this program worked out best for me, and only did 10 weeks of it and two long runs.

So wouldn't throw your coach and plan out the window just yet, maybe give it a try if you are not injury prone to this type of training..

The OP is running 16 miles per week. I'm not a marathoner but I would think more volume would be needed to run under 3 hours.

Ya, 16 mpw would not really cut it, but he doesn't need 65+ either. Some people thrive on long, slowish runs, others on short and fast. I'm pretty sure Gwen was wrecked by the big mileage that runners like to employ, and never really ran as fast as her 50+ miles a week while triathlon training. Miles Stewart could do a 2;35 on those 16 miles, but this guy is no Miles...(-; In fact, 16 would have been a really big running week for Miles, but of course most his running was done under 5 minute pace, or uphill approaching 100% efforts.

I agree with others he needs at least 5 days a week of running, just not on how far or how fast...

The speed stuff should help with the mental aspect of holding a pace when it gets really hard the 2nd half of the marathon.

I've done a few sub 3's and probably similar 5k pace to you (when I was in better running shape). I remember a key workout involved entering a Half Marathon about 3-4 weeks before the marathon and running to the race which was around 7-8 miles away from my place. I ran at a pretty easy pace to the race, then jumped in and ran sub-3 pace for the 13.1, I pushed the last few miles as much as I could. This really helped me on marathon race day close out strong pace from miles 16-23, then it's just about hanging on the last 5k! Also, I don't suggest staying with the sub 3 pacer, it's crowded and the accumulated stress of being around that group catches up to you. I like starting behind them and chasing them down, it's much more satisfying to pass them and build a cushion!

Agree with the consensus posted in this thread. If you want to run a marathon, let alone race a marathon shooting for sub-3, you need to be running more than 3 days a week, full stop. Could it work? Sure, if you have the natural ability, training history etc. But is it the "best" approach? No way in hell. The reason that plan calls for running 50% of the time at pace is precisely because it's only 3 days a week. But as any coach / plan will tell you, you can't just substitute intensity for volume, especially when the event itself is extremely long (aka "specificity"). You need to run enough so that running becomes second-nature to your body. Easy runs should feel, well, very easy by the time you're halfway through the build. This takes consistency and volume. If you run every day, even if it's easy and short, your body will adapt. This will enable you to hit your "key" sessions without incurring a huge recovery penalty.

I just finished my first marathon build off of a season of 70.3s where I was averaging 20 - 30 miles per week for most of the year. Ramped it up to 40, 50, 55 the peak week, and that was with cutting out my swim and very little biking (I would normally advise to keep some biking volume, but I was trying to avoid burnout at the end of the year). For reference I ran a 5K PR the previous year of 17:55 and ran a 1:29 on a flat course in my last 70.3. I ran 3:01:30 on a hilly course for my marathon (BQ for me). It's a different animal than a HM or 70.3.

If you're a triathlete, you can definitely supplement some running with cycling. Cycling is excellent for general aerobic fitness because you can go long and slow with zero impact. Running 2 hours is extremely taxing even if going slow, a 2 hour Z2 ride on the trainer is easy peasy. I would also look into low-cadence work, and finally strength training, especially if you're older, can really make a difference. I would check out plans from McMillan, I've had good success with them and they're well-known and respected (nothing crazy). Good luck!

Thanks a lot for your comments. What I can draw from this discussion is the fact that a really fast 5k does not necessarily translate to a sub 3 marathon - well in your case probably the 3.01 would be sub 3 on a flat course. I have looked into the McMilan plans they are focused on volume - not sure I can work this much running into my schedule. With all the collective feedback I have got I will likely try to go for a "hybrid" and have 2 longer runs with a bit less intensity and 2 race pace focused runs per week. I don't see myself running more than 4 times per week (due to my work schedule). I'll see how it goes....