The lines you've drawn are horrible. They don't in any way match up to each other. Hell, at the back the line in Orbee's photo intersects is shorts well towards the back of his body. For Boardman, it's almost down by his stomach. Also, you can't use that front seam as a point of comparison since Orbee's arms being folder up totally distorts it compared to Boardman. While Boardman's back is a definitely more rounded, it's seem pretty obvious his front end is considerably lower.

okay, fine, boardman was lower than obree.

but graeme was WAY cooler. :)

Now that is 100% true.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

You could lower your seat a tiny bit, but other than that, damn, that looks good. The "rule of thumb" being discussed is basically this: if you feel around on top of your shoulder, there is a bone that is kind of the extension of the collarbone. It has a bump on it, and that (i am pretty sure) is the acromion process. The latissimus dorsi is the muscle that makes the top half of a weightlifter look like a triangle. You can feel the point where it tapers into the back with your hand, it will be a few inches above the bottom of the rib cage, right where the side of your stomach/chest becomes your back.
Blah blah blah, this is a long way of saying that you look plenty low. Are you comfortable? How tall are you?

I can't see his photo. Looked through the entire thread...

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Alvaro,

Seat is too high, I would probably pull your seat back a little after lowering it to see how that felt (tends to be worth trying with back profiles like yours,) but otherwise looks pretty fast.


That being said, I'm always surprised when folks don't post a front view in these position threads... that's where a lot of the action is at, in terms of positioning...



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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
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"Personally I think a lot of people could ride lower and faster if they gave it time and didn't give up after not seeing instant improvements within the first couple of rides. "

>>>

i think part of what you are stating has to do with our society and the lack of "patience" we have. we want instant results. we want the "right" position from a three hour fitting. sometimes these things coincide with our desire for instant gratification and work. sometimes they don't. it took me a while to "adapt" to a lower with higher power output position. three months in the off season riding indoors and outside in 20 degree pa weather. i could have given up after the first week but since i did not, my body adapted and my position has changed. that's not to say this is going to happen for everyone but i gave it some time and it works for me. so i definitely agree with your assumption and can attest to it. good luck in FLA!

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- Matt

The comfortable position is the fastest position. You can put a guy in a wind tunnel and dial him in to aerodynamic perfection; low, high or somewhere in between in about 30 minutes. You might need to swap stems, riase or lower seat height, etc etc but if that guy cannot hold his position comfortably for 112 miles, he's fucked. Maintaining maximum/sustained power output over the required distance trumps all other considerations and it can only be achieved when ithe athlete is comfortable.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

"but if that guy cannot hold his position comfortably for 112 miles, he's fucked. "

Yup, it's all about Ironman, isn't it...

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MuffinTop and fredly,

I know the seat looks high but if I lower it I loose power, probably because the hip angle at the top of the stroke closes.

I'm 172cm tall, I think that's around 5'8

the saddle setback is 1cm behind BB, I've ridden with -3cm, seat lower and lower stem, so similar drop and longer. the position was pretty comfy and probably more aero, but I think I lost power, I rode IM Roth in that position and run a 2h52 marathon, so IMHO the theory that you cant run if you ride slack is bullshit. I run faster when I ride slack, my bike spit wasn't what I expected though

the actual position is the one that delivered my best bike split on 2007, It's comfortable overall except for the crotch area, so I just swapped from a toupe to a tritip saddle to see if that fixes it. as the season progresses I will see if I can adapt and run equally fast out of this position as of the previos one.

tom, the pic is here: http://elnido.org/oct2007p.jpg

I removed it from the post as it was too big and bothered some people.

cheers,

The problem is: How do you know whether the athlete's inability to sustain target power -- let's say, ~73% of FTP in this example -- is due to their lack of specificity training vs an issue with their position? I'm only ask because I think it's a potential mistake to assume the latter (not that you were making that assumption in this case). This is somewhat related to mjshapiro's comments about "lack of patience." I'm always amazed at the amount of changes people make to their position well into their race prep training. I believe you should have your race position absolutely nailed at least 3months prior to your race. In addition, one of the most valuable race requirements you can obtain from your long ride training during this period is the ability to achieve comfort in an aggressive aero position. Sorry for the use of the term "aggressive" but I'm pretty much a believer that anyone who has the patience to allow themselves to adapt to a lower position (prior to race prep) will simply see their power go back to previous levels with the obvious benefit of being more aerodynamic. Yes, there are always exceptions but I typically don't voice my opinion based on the 20% I observe/experience, but based on the 80% I observe/experience.

Thanks, Chris

Sorry, I am more with Lakefan on this one. I am not sure there is really any comfortable positions when riding 112 miles at race pace. Not compared to my lazy boy.

You can get used to lower positions over time (within reason of course). If you don't then you are probably not training enough.

---Scott

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Scott McMillan, M.Sc
Twitter@Factor9Coaching | Factor9Coaching.com | Facebook

PowerBars kept sliding out of my side/rear pockets when my position was "too aggressive." I am not sure if my bike time was any faster, but the lack of calories consumed during the bike adversely affected my run times.
"Efficiency" - can we supersize that concept?

Not really replying to you, McLovin', just throwing out something...

I just put on a stem this morning that I bought here on the ST classifieds (thanks applenutt!), and I just dropped my bars 15mm... And so far I haven't brought the saddle forward (and up) to compensate, and I rode the trainer with it for an hour today... No issues with comfort or hip angle. We'll see how it feels on the road.

Is it faster? who knows, but with the same gear and resistance level on the trainer, I had no problems at all keeping the same cadence and speed.

Just wanted to throw that out there -- I quite happily went lower, and I've got all winter to adapt.

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Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

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http://www.mjolnircycles.com/

"but if that guy cannot hold his position comfortably for 112 miles, he's fucked. "

"Yup, it's all about Ironman, isn't it..."

Around here it is.

I think a guy can deal with some tweaking to his position that allows him some sort of 'aero-advantage' (less comfortable position) in a 40K TT where more consideration is given to aerodynamics. However, this guy does not need to run 26.2 off of the bike.

In Ironman, it is all about being set up for the run. Riding comfortably over the required distance is crucial. Being aerodyamic for the sake of being aerodynamic is meaningless if you cant get off of that bike and run fast. Therefore, an aero position that 'makes sense' in a wind tunnel or under other test conditons might not be the best when put into a real world environment.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

"The problem is: How do you know whether the athlete's inability to sustain target power -- let's say, ~73% of FTP in this example -- is due to their lack of specificity training vs an issue with their position?"

There is no problem. Welcome to the Mojozenmaster Institute for Holisitically Advanced Aerodynamic Studies:

A comfortable aero position is something that an athlete will inituitively settle into.

Comfort first, details later.

With this in mind, it is your job as a power-training guru to assist the athlete to maximize their potential after they have achieved that 'comfortable position'

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

From a pure perfomance standpoint, I think you sill miss the most important point - the human brain.

Even a bad position ridden with confidence (or ignorance) will beat the best position ridden with doubt. Slowtwitch unfortunately helps to increase these mental roadblocks, the "what if I am in the wrong position" ...

Gordo is a great example, he had everything dialed in and started to "optimize" an already perfect package (get rid of the powermeter 5 minutes before the race).

I had a bike fitting from an austrian sport physiologist 2,5 years ago with 5:20 at IM-Austria. Didn't change a thing since than and got 20 minutes faster. Now I am daring to change the wheelset, the position will stay the same. Is it perfect? No! But with only 10.000km per year from which only 5.000 on my TT bike, changing positions too often IMHO leads to disaster. You never get used to a position and your body never fully adapts.

My point: Find a good fitter ONCE, and than ride the thing for about 50.000km (which comes down to 10 years for me) without a change and without second guessing your fitter.

Also let's be realistic, Ironman is not a fully individual time trial, if you are in a large (legal) pack, you don't get dropped on the flats or downhill, you get dropped on the climbs. So one of the considerations never mentioned here is, that I want a position, where standing climbing works well for me, which means not to low base bar and good clearance for my legs. I can't spin uphill in the aero position and I am not going to learn it, I will climb seated with the hands on the brakes or standing.

So when I talked with the fitter, he helped me to achieve a position, where I can ride reasonbly steep in the flats but like on my roadbike when I climb (sliding back in the saddle, hands on the brakes). For this for example I need a base bar, that bends upwards, not downwards like the pros prefer.

Someone pointed out to me off-list that I introduced the term scoliosis into this thread when in fact what I meant was kyphosis. I've therefore edited my earlier post to correct my mistake.

BTW, note the absence of a discernable "kink" in my back in any of these positions, even the shortened UCI legal (i.e., reach <80 cm) pursuit position shown in the middle of the 2nd row:

http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/aeropositions

I therefore don't think you can ascribe the sharp angle in, e.g., Armstrong's back to his position, i.e., his back would tend to be shaped that way regardless of how he was positioned.

"his back would tend to be shaped that way regardless of how he was positioned. "

Exactly. Lance does appear to have a kyphosis, at least on the bike. Some TT'ers have flat backs and some have round backs. No position modification will change this significantly.