I can promise you some good advice that will soon be coming (from the likes of Tom Demerly, among others), but as a heads up check out these articles:

1) www.bikesportmichigan.com/editorials/0000005.shtml

2) The bike reviews section on this same website, there is a review of the 2001 QR Kilo, 2002 Cervelo One, and a few others you might be interested in.

You might also try a search on this forum for "bike fit", as this issue is addressed almost daily.

Good Luck

---

---------------------------------------------------------

"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."

i can see that you're confused, because you confused me. on the one hand you say, probably correctly, that 53cm bike w/51cm top tube is appropriate for your size. but then there's that last sentence, "I think I am around a Quintana Roo 55-59."

i think you would be more likely a QR 53cm, which ought to have a top tube of about 51.5cm. you ought to buy it in 650c, because if you try to buy it in 700c you'll have a head tube that is too tall.

if you don't mind a taller head tube, because you don't intend to ride in a particularly aggressive position, then yes, you could ride 700c. but if you're ratcheting your position up (higher, less aerodynamic) in the front, you'll want to correspond by ratcheting yourself back (rearward, a slacker seat angle) in the saddle. the end result of that process--if taken to it's extreme--is a road race bike. if you want an intermediate position, say 75-degrees of seat angle with a taller head tube and a more upright position in front, then you don't want a QR kilo or tequilo, you want QR's new zero gravity, or cervelo's new ONE. these bikes have very different price points, but they are thematically the same--they both offer a less-aggressive aero position.

here's the bottom line: if you want a kilo or tequilo, that's a true tri bike with a true tri position, and that's a great value if you're looking for a fairly aggressive, racey ride. you ought to buy that bike in 650c in probably a size 53cm.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Wow, I think you need to go to a good dealer in your area and get a good set of measurements. If that doesn't work try the Yaqui website and consider working with Ves on one of those to get the best fit.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Dan, You've managed to confuse me with your headtube issues. Having read most of your site, I know that you consider the headtube on my Saber (53cm, 650c) waaaaay too tall at 16.7 cm. I am only 5'9" and fall in on probably the shorter side of mid-fit for that bike. According to you I shouldn't be able to get too aggressive on this bike. However, I've got a 10cm drop from saddle to armpads, and have another cm that I could drop the stem. I have the Profile Carbon X bars, but if I were to go with another setup, say, VisionTechs, I could get another 1-2 cm, making a total of about 14cm possible drop. Are you saying that this isn't aggressive enough? If I remember correctly, your recommendations for drop are 8-12 cm.

Right now, I'd consider my setup on the low side of comfortable for IM distance. For courses with much climbing I might move the bars up .5cm. For shorter events I'd drop the extra cm spacer. I can't imagine going much lower. My back is already pretty darn flat. If I were on a Cervelo, I'd need 2-4cm worth of spacers or a rising stem to be in the same position.

Regarding the original post, I'd think that the relatively short QR headtube would make the actual headtube height, and consequently the resulting drop, about the same as what I've got. Being roughly the same height, I'd think this would be just about right for the original poster, give or take a physiological difference or two. (keep in mind that I didn't actually break out the calculators or measuring tapes)

I am 5' 10" 180lbs and ride a 53cm Tequilo. I could have gone wither 53 or 55. The top tube on these two is different by only 1cm. I also had the 650 vs. 700 question. Being unsure which to choose, i wwent with the 53/shorter head tube which then made the decision in wheel size easy - ony came in 650. glad i went with 650 setup - I am much better on the hills, though in my case, that's not saying much.

---

jg

the only way a guy 5'9 could have a 14cm drop on a bike with a 16+ cm headtube is:

1. if he's measuring something other than i'm measuring, or
2. if he's got a stem with a deeper drop.

it's quite possible to achieve what you need to achieve with the latter. my assumption is to use a stem with a +/-5 degree rise/fall, because with a stem like this you've got a congruous amount of stem adjustment, totalling about 40mm, if you assume 25mm of spacers.

does everybody understand this? if you've got a + or - 15 degrees (let us say) then you'll have a gap between the adjustability of the stem in its rise configuration vs its fall configuration. that's why, in general, i'd prefer to having bikes built where the + or - 5 or 6 degree stem is able to be used.

however, if you need more drop than a -5 degree stem will allow, then by all means get a stem with a steeper drop. i've got a yaqui that has a 13cm head tube (700c wheels) and i'm 6'2". that's fairly aggressive, but i think i'm going to try to go a bit more aggressive, so i'll have to get a stem that's perhaps minus 15 degrees (i believe minus 17 degrees is level (horizontal) with a 73 degree-ish head angle, no?

so, anyway, yeah, you can get whatever you want out of any bike you have, you just might not be able to get it easily or gracefully.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

  Ok Dan, I re-measured everything. Using a level across the saddle (SLR) and measuring drop to elbow pads on the Profile Carbon X's I conservatively measure 10.2cm. I have another cm spacer between stem and headset giving me a max adjustment of 11.2cm. When building the bike I tried a set of VisionTech bars, the model with no risers and the short forktube clamp section. That measured 13.1. Not the 14cm I quoted above, but I didn't reference my data sheets when I tapped that post. I should mention that I have slightly longer legs and a slightly shorter torso than the average 5'9" guy, which puts my saddle slightly higher.

Now that 13.1 (or 11.2 with current setup) may not be world-beater aggressive, but an informal survey of bike racks last season shows me that I'm probably more aggressively positioned than the lion's share of AG athletes out there. I found 8-9cm most common in the more competitive athletes.

I also think that aggressive is a function of some ratio of upper arm length to drop. An 8-12cm drop will be much more aggressive for the 5'9" athlete than the 6'2" athlete by virtue of a shorter upper arm.

Honest question, NOT a snipe: What would you say is ultra-aggressive for the 5'9" guy, without crossing over into the ridiculous. I once saw a guy riding a custom welded stem job that gave him more like 12 inches of drop, but the bike was nearly unrideable and I think his power output was way down. Needless to say he went from winning the state TT the year before to MOP.

I think you should survey the drop measurements sometime this year. Make sure to include rider height and upper arm length in the survey.

if you're using visiontechs you're going to get more drop. i'm assuming syntace or profile, which represents 90% of what's out there. certainly visiontechs are going to help.

i'd say 13cm or 14cm would be quite aggressive for a guy 5'9". i've got a formula for the range on our fit pages.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

  I hadn't considered that, Dan. Using the old syntace bullhorns and C2s on my old Tequilo would certainly put me in the 6-7cm range on my current setup, all else being equal. FWIW I could have bought the 51cm and gotten a 14.something headtube, but that shifted my center of gravity forward too much and the back end tended to jump out a bit.

For others reading this post, I guess what this means is that, if you are buying a Litespeed, or similarly built bike, be prepared to fork out the $300+ for a one piece bar system in order to get appropriate drop adjustability on your bike.

since you mention litespeed, i don't entirely agree with you. taking myself as an example, the litespeed has a long head tube, but it also has a long top tube, compared to what i would normally want. so the problem is solved largely by my just buying a smaller size. while i'd buy a 59cm in QR, a 57cm litespeed wouldn't do badly for me.

yes, the head tube might still be a bit tall, but not nearly as tall as it would've been on a 59cm.

the tough part is when the top tube is short and the head tube is tall. then, you're absolutely right, you've got no good option except a stem with a lot of drop or an aero bar with very low-profile armrests.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Which TRI bikes would fit into this description; long head tube, short top tube?

---

Ross Hoopingarner

Litespeed (Saber and Blade) do run long top tubes per seat tube length. QR is shorter top tube per seat tube with a reasonable head tube height. ABG (Litespeed and QR parent company) is smart in doing that, they have a full stable with a wide fit range. QR geometry is still very, very strong for shorter torso, steep angle customers. Great bikes too. That $1500+/- Kilo is a pretty little bike with a nice parts kit.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Looking at the QR TiPhoon size 59, the head tube is 14.6cm with a top tube of 57cm. Compare that to my P3 size 58 with a head tube of 14cm and top tube of 56cm, I'd say they are very close. I'll pass on the .6cm gain in head tube for my -1cm top tube and 78deg (compared to 76.5 deg) seat tube angle. The Kilo is actually shorter than my P3.

The reason I ask is that because of my short torso/height combo I require spacers and a rising stem to get the right position (areabars 5-10cm below seat height). I have looked at the profile and visiontech bars but could never get them to fit because of the integrated stem being so shallow. Seems i would have the same issue on the QRs. Or am I missing something?

---

Ross Hoopingarner

Ross, Sounds like you're in the same boat I'm in: 5'9", relatively longer legs, shorter torso and upper arm than the average 5'9". I found that I fit much better on a Saber. Though it has longer TT, just size down. You'll get a taller head tube and not have to put a ton of spacers in to use one piece bars. My 53cm has a 16.7 head-tube.