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List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :)
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Ok this is for fun so don’t take it too serious

Add your own to the thread

Never do sets longer than 200 yards. Your stroke breaks down

VS

You have to practice to race it. Definitely so long repeats and swims 400 to up to race distance


Any good swimmer can do all 4 strokes even if you are a triathlete you should practice them all

VS

You only have to do freestyle. Don’t bother with the learning other 3 strokes




Kicking uses your largest muscles. And most swims are wetsuit legal so do minimal kicking even during practice

VS

Any good swimmer, including triathletes should train kicking all the time



Spend most of your limited ltime running and biking That is the best bang for the buck

VS

If you don’t put significant time into swimming it will slow down your bike and run in a race so you need to really focus on swimming. It will save you time in a race



Pool swimming is the same as swimming in a triathlon. There is no such thing as triathlon swimming


VS

There is a significant difference between open water/triathlon swimming VS pool swimming. Technique and style of swimming is different



Distance per stroke is most important

VS

Open water has chop you need to practice a faster swim stroke don’t worry much about DPS



NEVER do your next set until you can use optimum form

VS

You have to learn to swim fatigued. Your stroke will break down don’t worry too much about it




Don’t do long swims until your form is very good. You will just be ingraining bad technique

VS

Just pile on the yardage you will figure out the best technique for you



It is very important to have proper rotation to get a powerful pull

VS

Lucy Charles Barkley barely rotates. It’s not important she has very high cadence which would be impossible with the rotation other coaches tell you to have



Lol. So add your own for fun
Last edited by: MrTri123: Dec 18, 23 6:14
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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Bilateral breathing

VS

Oxygen is the limiter


Straight arm recovery

VS

Bent arm recovery

Flip Turns


VS


We don't turn in triathlon

Kiwami Racing Team
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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MrTri123 wrote:
Ok this is for fun so don’t take it too serious

Add your own to the thread

Never do sets longer than 200 yards. Your stroke breaks down

VS

You have to practice to race it. Definitely so long repeats and swims 400 to up to race distance


Any good swimmer can do all 4 strokes even if you are a triathlete you should practice them all

VS

You only have to do freestyle. Don’t bother with the learning other 3 strokes




Kicking uses your largest muscles. And most swims are wetsuit legal so do minimal kicking even during practice

VS

Any good swimmer, including triathletes should train kicking all the time



Spend most of your limited ltime running and biking That is the best bang for the buck

VS

If you don’t put significant time into swimming it will slow down your bike and run in a race so you need to really focus on swimming. It will save you time in a race



Pool swimming is the same as swimming in a triathlon. There is no such thing as triathlon swimming


VS

There is a significant difference between open water/triathlon swimming VS pool swimming. Technique and style of swimming is different



Distance per stroke is most important

VS

Open water has chop you need to practice a faster swim stroke don’t worry much about DPS



NEVER do your next set until you can use optimum form

VS

You have to learn to swim fatigued. Your stroke will break down don’t worry too much about it




Don’t do long swims until your form is very good. You will just be ingraining bad technique

VS

Just pile on the yardage you will figure out the best technique for you



It is very important to have proper rotation to get a powerful pull

VS

Lucy Charles Barkley barely rotates. It’s not important she has very high cadence which would be impossible with the rotation other coaches tell you to have



Lol. So add your own for fun


apart from this advice Distance per stroke is most important i have given every advise above to different swimmers and wait i had one water thrasher i did tell distance per stroke improvement is crucial for you

i guess different folks ... based on power profiles , backgrounds , levels , goals skills etc
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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You can't be a good triathlete if you aren't a good swimmer, if swimming is your weakness you should prioritize it

vs

Swimming is only 10-20% of a triathlon, you're better off spending more time on bike and run training




Drills are vital to a good technique, don't skip them

vs

If your time is limited you should spend it swimming, not doing drills
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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Bilateral breathing is important.

vs

Bilateral breathing doesn't matter (there's a video interview somewhere, of professional swimmers and triathletes about this topic where many of them said something like "my coach says I need to practice bilateral breathing but then I ignore it").


Reach encourages good form and maximizes pull.

vs

Reach will make it difficult to achieve good high elbow form.
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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This is a great topic!

Pull buoys/ paddles builds strength

Vs.

Pull buoys/ paddles teaches bad form

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed, but this is ST, so it will turn ugly by page 3?


http://www.researchms.org/trifest/
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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The most confusing one for me has been about hand speed and timing during the pull. A previous coach told me to think about "holding on to the water" and letting my hand stay where it gripped the water so I could roll my body past the hand, which leads to fairly slow hands underwater. Current coach tells me to pull harder on the water and move my hands faster underwater to increase my cadence and speed. Previous coach told me to reach out in front and spear my hand through the water reaching forward as far as I can, current coach says I should speed up my recovery arm and let it drop into the water and "get to the catch" quickly. Previous coach had me practice "front-quadrant" swim drills, current coach tells me to "turn my arms over quicker". Previous coach told me to look straight at the bottom of the pool, current coach told me to look slightly forward. Lots of other technical advice that seems to be contradicting what I had previously been told, but I'm sure (as with all of these pieces of advice) the "truth" is somewhere in between the extremes. I think it also depends on the "style" of "freestyle" a particular coach is emphasising. The funny (okay, not funny, really frustrating) thing for me is that I listen to the coach, make the adjustments, try my best, and my times stay EXACTLY THE SAME. Which leads me to suspect that maybe the details I'm being told to focus on don't actually matter all that much.
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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Very very timely topic for me as it’s been frustrating as hell! Most recently:

- start exhaling as soon as your face is in the water

VS

- hold the air in your lungs and then exhale rapidly just before you take the next breath.

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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Haha great topic! Ive heard AND tried/failed all of the ones mentioned above, and I still have no opinion as to which of them are right! (They're probably right/wrong in the right/wrong circumstances or person!)

My addition:

- You can swim as much as you want with buoy/paddles/simshorts, it only helps. (from Brett Sutton)

vs

- Ditch all toys as they're just crutches that aren't really helping you compared to swimming without them
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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S-pull (scull) vs. Straight pull

Look straight down vs. Hairline at the surface (i.e look 1-2M ahead)

TI will make you faster vs. TI teaches you to be efficient but slow

Mimic the technique of Phelps, Ledecky, Yang, Hackett, etc. vs. They are outliers so don't try to copy them

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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You NEED to be strong and able to do pull-ups to swim fast

VS

I coach world level swimmers and some can’t perform a single pull-up
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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quality matters more than quantity in swimming

V

just swim more
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [kajet] [ In reply to ]
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kajet wrote:
Very very timely topic for me as it’s been frustrating as hell! Most recently:

- start exhaling as soon as your face is in the water

VS

- hold the air in your lungs and then exhale rapidly just before you take the next breath.


Love this one

Actually just heard you have to expel the air in your lungs fast and only half breaths Full lungs cause your chest to rise and your legs to drop
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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Size down your wetsuit since tight = hydrodynamic
v
Size up your wetsuit to reduce shoulder fatigue, ease breathing, and faster to remove in T1
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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MrTri123 wrote:
kajet wrote:
Very very timely topic for me as it’s been frustrating as hell! Most recently:

- start exhaling as soon as your face is in the water

VS

- hold the air in your lungs and then exhale rapidly just before you take the next breath.



Love this one

Actually just heard you have to expel the air in your lungs fast and only half breaths Full lungs cause your chest to rise and your legs to drop

Which leads us to:

- keep the air in your lungs as long as you can (and exhale rapidly just before you take the next breath) to improve whole body buoyancy as you press the chest down into the water

VS

- don't turn your chest into a life vest or your legs will sink - get that air out of there.

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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GTN must have heard that your thread is far to civilized and put this video out today to stir up trouble.. :-)

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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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Too much muscle and too lean to swim fast..need more body fat
Vs
muscle/fat thing has nothing to do with who swims fast. Technique and swim-specific
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [cherry_bomb] [ In reply to ]
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cherry_bomb wrote:


Drills are vital to a good technique, don't skip them

vs

If your time is limited you should spend it swimming, not doing drills

Following on from this one:

Do drills every swim

Vs

Don't do drills unsupervised
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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Volume and VO2 and threshold training

vs

USRPT

Oh. I'm coming at this from the swim-specific side.

USRPT has essentially an N=1, but it's gotten an immense amount of attention and press. It helps that he's a multi-event world champion, but in all honesty, he's a multi-event world champion in the 25m pools in the shortest events. He won an Olympic gold medal, but largely on the strength of the other guys on his relay, which included two WR holders in their events. Famously, Michael Andrew led the 2021 Olympic 200 IM into the last 160m, but died so hard that he finished 5th. USRPT has very little relevance to any swimming events beyond the short races in the 25m pool. And hardly any relevance to the kind of swimming that almost everyone on this forum does: OWS (800m to 3900m or more). Certainly the high-speed interval training is a part of some training, but that stuff should already be in your plan anyway, just not to the exclusion of volume and aerobic and threshold training.

Reminder that training for OWS has much more in common with a runner training for X-C and 10k-21k-42k training than for most pool swims (except maybe the 800 and 1500m long course races).
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [hhtdp0] [ In reply to ]
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hhtdp0 wrote:
Too much muscle and too lean to swim fast, need more body fat
Vs
muscle/fat thing has nothing to do with who swims fast. Technique and swim-specific

Swim-specific strength is what it all boils down to. You absolutely have to have this to swim reasonably well. "Grip it and rip it" as a top tri swimmer says, e.g., get a hold of the water and pull it as hard as you can. Paddles can help a swimmer feel what it is like to pull water effectively and develop this swim-specific strength.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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There were a number of things that you said about USRPT that weren't true. First, it's not just Michael Andrew who has used USRPT successfully. And I'll be the first to admit there are issues with USRPT. But besides leading in the 200IM for most of the race he won US Olympic Trials in the 200IM. He set the American Record in 100 Breast at Olympic Trials and qualified in the 100 breast, 50 free and 200IM which is a rather unusual mix for a swimmer. You typically don't see a 50 sprinter who can also swim the 200IM let alone a 100 breaststroker who can qualify in the 50 and the 200IM. It was also his first Olympics. You might want to go back to check to see how Caleb Dressel did at his first Olympics.

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USRPT has very little relevance to any swimming events beyond the short races in the 25m pool.

I've successfully trained ultra-marathon swimmers on repeats of 150 and less.
Quote:
Certainly the high-speed interval training is a part of some training, but that stuff should already be in your plan anyway, just not to the exclusion of volume and aerobic and threshold training.

If you think USRPT is just high speed interval training and doesn't impact aerobic and threshold training, then you might want to get a little more educated on the actually training and the construct behind it, especially for distance swimmers.

Yours is an opinion that has been thrown around for a very long time in swimming and well before USRPT. Dave Salo was one of the pioneers of "race pace" training going back to the early 1980s. He has successfully coached world record holders and gold medalists with his philosophy and not just sprinters. He coached the gold medal winner in the 10k in London for men and bronze for women.

Ultimtately, as a coach, you should be asking what is the minimum amount of training needed for the athlete to achieve peak performance?

I hope this helps,

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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You need to learn to glide more and you need to up your stroke rate
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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All of these are great - I don't know if I have any new ones to add, but the ones that stuck out to me and I struggle with the most are:


All swims should be sets/intervals, with sets not exceeding 400-500 yards, to ensure proper form without fatigue
vs.
Swim 2000-5000 yards consecutively to build up your aerobic swim endurance because that's what you do during races


Pool swimming helps with form, technique, etc. - swim in a pool as much as you can
vs.
Swim in the type of body of water that you will be racing in


In order to be a competitive triathlete, you need to swim at least 3-4x/week minimum
vs.
No one wins a race on the swim - as long as you can move from buoy to buoy, you'll be fine. Don't waste your time in the pool when you could better spend it on your bike.


Breathe bilaterally so you can avoid neck strain and waves crashing into your face
vs.
Breathe every one or two strokes on the side you're most comfortable

Race in a full-sleeve wetsuit, because you will swim slightly faster and it will reduce shoulder fatigue
vs.
Swim in a sleeveless wetsuit if you are more comfortable doing so, especially if the water is warm enough to do so
Last edited by: BigDoeRehab: Dec 19, 23 8:59
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Re: List of conflicting Swim advice you have heard or seen :) [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:

Ultimtately, as a coach, you should be asking what is the minimum amount of training needed for the athlete to achieve peak performance?

I hope this helps,

Tim

A lot depends on what you are trying to do with the swim.

One should probably try to do a bunch of different things at different stages.

Anecdote:
I have a college buddy who is trying to break US masters records in the 50/100 back and 50 fly.

He subscribes to a radical low volume, high intensity model of training.

He thinks this is relevant for me.
It might be a little bit relevant.
But only a bit.

My buddies 50 back is pretty bad ass.
His 100 Fly is "not bad for an old guy"
But I doubt his 200 fly would even qualify as "bad" (assuming he were to even attempt such a thing).


As a triathlon swimmer, my objective are:
A) To not waste too much training stress (or thought) on swimming.
B) To be able to swim 15 - 52 minutes at 1:08 -1:18 (100yd) pace without getting TOO tired or having my heart rate drift upwards for too long.

2) High intensity/ low volume:
A) Might very easily mean MORE training stress
than moderate volume/low intensity
B) Swimming 1:08 - 1:18 pace is NOT particularly fast for an aging college swimmer.
C) 1650 - 3800 yards IS a VERY significant distance if you are training less 15,000 yds/week


My point:

It's all good and well to talk about minimums.
But minimum what?
Minimum stress?
Minimum time?
Minimum volume?
Minimum thought?
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