Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Nov 26, 23 10:48

Post #226 of 309 (3556 views)

lightheir wrote:

I will give Lionel credit however for swimming a 50:59 (vs Jan's 45:58) at their tribattle. Of course, that's with a sighting rope to help and ideal conditions, but it at least shows that he can get down to that speed if everything lines up right. Still, doing that it a scrum of folks who will not be courteously letting you swim by is a whole different story, and they're putting a 3-4 minute (if not more) gap on him right now, which is a pretty giant gap to overcome if you've been stagnating at what seems to be near your ceiling. Don't get me wrong - I think he's a GREAT swimmer for an AOS swimmer who really had true zero swimming background, but there's only so much you can do against people naturally born and built for it at that level - and whom are getting even faster nowadays.

If we're going to use the term scrum around here, let's at least do it correctly. A scrum is an orderly system to restart play. What you're talking about would be a "break down" which forms into a ruck.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [waverider101] [ In reply to ]

Nov 26, 23 11:36

Post #227 of 309 (3506 views)

waverider101 wrote:

some data points to give some context to this.

he swam a 18:45 or something like that for a 1500m a few years ago. 1:15 - 1.16 pace per 100. he's done that. a 51 iron man swims is 1:20. 4-5 seconds slower is a lot.

LCB did a video not too long ago showing speed differences in a regular suit, a swim skin and a wetsuit over a 500 effort long course meters. regular suit was a 5:48 iirc, swim skin was 538 (so 2 s per 100 faster) and wetsuit was 522 (so 4.5 sec per 100 faster).

a 51 is well within reach as he needs to be able to do a 1:21-1.23 LCM in the pool over 3.5km. I assume we are talking Kona in a swim skin. plus that water is damn salty from what I hear.

with his 18:45 (not at his maximum potential in swimming) being what he has done in the past, I reckon he could get to a 51 for sure. needs to be fit enough it is not a huge effort to do that speed though. throw in some drafting which will help.

He swam a 1500 longcourse meters pool race in 18:50.25 over 5.5 years ago - March 23, 2018 at age 30.

His 19:13.04 for a 1500 meters short course pool race coverts to a 19:37.03 for a 1500 meter longcourse. Or approximately 47 seconds slower today, versus 5.5 years earlier.

Last edited by: wetswimmer99: Nov 26, 23 11:38

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [Lagoon] [ In reply to ]

Nov 26, 23 12:05

Post #228 of 309 (3473 views)

Lagoon wrote:

Lurker4 wrote:

Lagoon wrote:

This thread definitely shows the PTO would be nuts not to offer Lionel a contract for next season.

PTO hasn't delivered on its promise to even annpunce the races for next year. How can ANY athlete believe them enough at this point to go all in with a contract? Sanders would be nuts at this point to even consider accepting a contract with them.

I never said he should accept. All I was saying is they’d be foolish to not to do everything in their power to include the most talked about triathlete by a country mile.

In agree there. And Sanders would be crazy to accept unless he's very well paid. He'd be crazy to go and look like a chump behind a bunch of fast swimmers all year. I bet Sam Long will go too, which helps, but again that's assuming these contacts exist, which seems more like a pipe dream than reality at this point.

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [Lurker4] [ In reply to ]

Nov 26, 23 12:30

Post #229 of 309 (3440 views)

I think the bigger issue is that LS isn't good enough anymore at the PTO distance for the PTO to basically promote him as a key personality. Granted he is a HUGE pull from triathlon community, but I'm guessing the PTO needs to pull huge numbers far greater from outside the "tri fans" who love/hate LS. IE- the product has to be there in addition to the "personalities".

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]

Nov 26, 23 12:35

Post #230 of 309 (3435 views)

Well Sam Long did get 5th. So Sanders is at least a that good. On a lucky day for him, which means bad luck for competitors he could get 5th-3rd. But I agree he'd usually look like 6-10 if the race is stacked.

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]

Nov 26, 23 12:57

Post #231 of 309 (3413 views)

B_Doughtie wrote:

I think the bigger issue is that LS isn't good enough anymore at the PTO distance for the PTO to basically promote him as a key personality. Granted he is a HUGE pull from triathlon community, but I'm guessing the PTO needs to pull huge numbers far greater from outside the "tri fans" who love/hate LS. IE- the product has to be there in addition to the "personalities".

.
.
Times,they are a-changin'.....

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]

Nov 26, 23 14:11

Post #232 of 309 (3361 views)

Agreed

Their distances are not good for a racer whose weakest sport is swimming

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [wetswimmer99] [ In reply to ]

Nov 26, 23 18:46

Post #233 of 309 (3228 views)

wetswimmer99 wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

This is exactly the problem with the dick swinging from swimmers (I compete in 5-10 masters meets per year so let me explain).

Swimming inherently is a front of pack sport. There is literally no place for being slow.

The sport self selects the slow kids out of the pool and eventually the kids who are not particularly fast quit.

Swimming is a hard sport. Kids / people quit hard sports. The outliers are the ones that last to older age group swimming (17/18) and above. It is not uncommon for large competitive metro swim programs to have 80 to 100 kids in each of the following categories: the 8 and under // 9/10 ages // 11/12 ages. By age 13 and above, the larger programs get much smaller. The volume, commitment, time away from doing other things, social life trade offs, is very high. 15 to 20 hours of swimming per week for the older kids, the time to and from the pools, lengthy swim meets, dryland training, etc. Many kids drop out for all of the preceding, whether they are fast or not. Throw in being slower, and there's a higher drop out rate on top of that for those swimmers. Programs that have those 100 swimmers at 11/12 age group, would be lucky to have even 5 or 8 kids at age 17/18... and generally those kids are really, really fast, with maybe 1 person slower, that still swims.

Someone mentioned why can't Lionel get to a AA+ category. That would be amazing for an adult onset swimmer, and perhaps there are some, but I've never heard of one. In USA Swimming it goes BB > A > AA > AAA > AAAA. No AA+ category, but that being said, an AA time for a 17/18 boy would be front of the pack triathlon swimmer all day long in Ironman distance, and within the front pack swimmer in Short Distance/Draft Legal.

We have 1 AOS on ST who is very close to AA. This is Ken Lehner (klehner is his ST name) who started swimming at age 26 and by 29 he had gotten down to a 51.0 for 100 scy, which is tantalizingly close to the 2024 AA 18 yr old standard of 50.29. Beyond ST, I know a guy who hit 54.7 for the 100 scy as an AOS which is solidly BB. I know 2 other guys who went 1:56 for 200 scy, again solid BB. And then one other guy who I saw go 11:00 for 1000 scy from a push, just in practice. Presumably he could go at least 10:45 when rested and off the blocks in a meet, so solid A level. In sum, no solid AA AOS swimmers but some very respectable AOS. :)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Nov 26, 23 21:38

Post #234 of 309 (3127 views)

ericmulk wrote:

waverider101 wrote:

140 pounds is a huge disadvantage for water polo!

Sounds like you’ve been around quite a few different sports - most of the people I know who have gotten into swimming more as an adult probably had some basic training as teens. A guy I know says to people he only took up swimming as an adult but I suspect that is because he feels he didn’t achieve a very good level and may have some shame / embarrassment when he raced school and club (when the real swimmers swam). And he did a 9 minute 800 free short course meters as late 40s.

But in true swimming terms a 9 minute 800 is actually very slow, like this was smashed by 15 years old girls with no goggles 50 years ago (in long course)

I do think that “talent” (a pretty ambiguous concept) is a different thing to time and opportunities to learn an activity, including swimming. Work beats talent when talent doesn’t work :) but you’ve been around lots of different sports so I guess everyone has their own take on

Just as a point of information, the world record for 45-49 men in the 800 scm is 8:24.75, so IMO 9:XX is pretty good for a guy in his late 40s. Not elite obv since the open WR is 7:23.42 by the legendary Grant Hackett back in 2008.

9 flat in scm is great, particularly for a guy in his late 40s. but mentally when top guys in that age group who can do sub 845 - 855 in long course and could 8:10s in peak it puts it into perspective.

what would you prefer - hitting close to PR times in your late 40s, and having a longer time cycle of working to improve yourself (at a comparatively lower level) or hitting a high peak 20 years and managing the decay if you were an 8:15 guy at 20?

the guys who can do 8:20s for scm 800 at 45-49 were elite mid D or D swimmers in their youth - mostly europeans - at the national finalists level to make the OLYs and maybe just missed out. those guys show what top swim talent looks like when swim is cultivated / maintained over decades and hormones are looked after (illicit or non illicit).

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Nov 27, 23 0:27

Post #235 of 309 (3067 views)

yes true. Just imagine the stress of losing minutes during the swim. the stress and negativity that is associated with that must be draining. also not seeing the competition and then the urgency and stress to get going on the bike is not the best way to start a 7 hour race.

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Nov 27, 23 12:16

Post #236 of 309 (2780 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

Work Matters
Aerobic "talent matters"
Inherent strength "matters"
Flexibility "matters"
Coordination in a weightless medium "matters" (by that I mean open chain)

This pretty much sums it up. Talent matters, as does hard work and attention to technique. The more challenging issue is dealing with the tradeoff between swimming and the other two sports, which I think is a common dilemma. Like most triathletes, I'm not a great swimmer and I know swimming more would make me faster. But given that there are so many hours I can give to training, is more swimming the best use of my time? I acknowledge that swimming makes me a better cyclist and runner, but I'm sure if it makes me better than actually cycling and running.

Just to make this less abstract, here are some numbers. For my last 70.3 race, I averaged 13.5 hours a week total training and swam 10,500 yards/ week. There were 107 people in my age group, and I finished 6th, 3rd, and 1st in the swim, bike, and run, respectively. For my last full distance race, I averaged 17.5 hours a week total volume, swimming 13,000 yds/ week. There were 132 people in my age group, and I finished 11th, 3rd, and 1st.

My sense is that I have some time to gain in the bike, but clearly I am weakest in the swim relative to my competition so maybe I should focus my attention there. Should I swim a fourth session each week and drop a bike or run session? Should I devote an offseason entirely to swimming? I'm at my upper limit in terms of the total amount of time I can give to training, so if I add something I have to subtract something else. These are the questions I wrestle with, as I'm sure do many others.

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 27, 23 13:08

Post #237 of 309 (2724 views)

I think you devote your training to the specific goals and or "demands of competition". Which is why an athlete like LS even though this swim gain is likely the smallest improvement if you look at an "overall" improvement; but it's the most important because it's that important to get to T1 in the chase group. If he was already in the chase group, he'd then be able to devote needs to other things.

So it looks like your fringe FOP swimmer within your AG so it may not really be all that advantage to go all in on a swim block to gain such little time, if you are already in a good spot. LS is not in a good spot, thus he needs to basically go all in on the swim and frankly not worry about what that does to his B and R initially. That's the disadvantage he's in. He doesn't get to claim "well it's a triathlon so I should B and R too".

Just spitballing but your rankings within your AG likely isn't that big of a deficit out of the swim? I'm guessing you likely finish podium in your AG in those events you mentioned.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 27, 23 15:11

Post #238 of 309 (2638 views)

Changpao wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

Work Matters
Aerobic "talent matters"
Inherent strength "matters"
Flexibility "matters"
Coordination in a weightless medium "matters" (by that I mean open chain)

This pretty much sums it up. Talent matters, as does hard work and attention to technique. The more challenging issue is dealing with the tradeoff between swimming and the other two sports, which I think is a common dilemma. Like most triathletes, I'm not a great swimmer and I know swimming more would make me faster. But given that there are so many hours I can give to training, is more swimming the best use of my time? I acknowledge that swimming makes me a better cyclist and runner, but I'm sure if it makes me better than actually cycling and running.

Just to make this less abstract, here are some numbers. For my last 70.3 race, I averaged 13.5 hours a week total training and swam 10,500 yards/ week. There were 107 people in my age group, and I finished 6th, 3rd, and 1st in the swim, bike, and run, respectively. For my last full distance race, I averaged 17.5 hours a week total volume, swimming 13,000 yds/ week. There were 132 people in my age group, and I finished 11th, 3rd, and 1st.

My sense is that I have some time to gain in the bike, but clearly I am weakest in the swim relative to my competition so maybe I should focus my attention there. Should I swim a fourth session each week and drop a bike or run session? Should I devote an offseason entirely to swimming? I'm at my upper limit in terms of the total amount of time I can give to training, so if I add something I have to subtract something else. These are the questions I wrestle with, as I'm sure do many others.

How many minutes were you behind 1st in the bike and swim?

How many minutes were you ahead in the run?

How much time did you train on average in the 3 disciplines before your half and your full?

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]

Nov 28, 23 8:26

Post #239 of 309 (2470 views)

MrTri123 wrote:

Changpao wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

Work Matters
Aerobic "talent matters"
Inherent strength "matters"
Flexibility "matters"
Coordination in a weightless medium "matters" (by that I mean open chain)

This pretty much sums it up. Talent matters, as does hard work and attention to technique. The more challenging issue is dealing with the tradeoff between swimming and the other two sports, which I think is a common dilemma. Like most triathletes, I'm not a great swimmer and I know swimming more would make me faster. But given that there are so many hours I can give to training, is more swimming the best use of my time? I acknowledge that swimming makes me a better cyclist and runner, but I'm sure if it makes me better than actually cycling and running.

Just to make this less abstract, here are some numbers. For my last 70.3 race, I averaged 13.5 hours a week total training and swam 10,500 yards/ week. There were 107 people in my age group, and I finished 6th, 3rd, and 1st in the swim, bike, and run, respectively. For my last full distance race, I averaged 17.5 hours a week total volume, swimming 13,000 yds/ week. There were 132 people in my age group, and I finished 11th, 3rd, and 1st.

My sense is that I have some time to gain in the bike, but clearly I am weakest in the swim relative to my competition so maybe I should focus my attention there. Should I swim a fourth session each week and drop a bike or run session? Should I devote an offseason entirely to swimming? I'm at my upper limit in terms of the total amount of time I can give to training, so if I add something I have to subtract something else. These are the questions I wrestle with, as I'm sure do many others.

How many minutes were you behind 1st in the bike and swim?

How many minutes were you ahead in the run?

How much time did you train on average in the 3 disciplines before your half and your full?

Great questions.

In the 70.3, I was three minutes behind first place in my age group in the swim. I was nine minutes down on the bike and five minutes behind on the run. I finished second in my AG overall.

For the full, I was 11 minutes behind in the swim, nine minutes down on the bike, and the fastest runner by 13 minutes. I won my age group.

10K swimming represents about 2.75 hours of swimming; 13K is about 3.5 hours. So, for my both races I spent about 20 percent of my time swimming. For the full, I averaged 9 hours on the bike (almost all indoors) and 40 miles/ week. For the half, it was 6.75 hrs and 30 miles/ week.

I'm inclined to dedicate the offseason to swimming, if for no other reason than technique gains are (hopefully) forever. Also, I'm over 50 and I know that with running it will get harder to avoid injury and some of my training will have to shift toward the non-impact sports.

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 28, 23 10:46

Post #240 of 309 (2422 views)

Amazing up by 13 minutes on the run

Any possibility you left too much in the bike?

As for off season. I have decided to do the same. Focus on the swim with just enough of the other stuff so as not to fall off completely

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 28, 23 12:50

Post #241 of 309 (2373 views)

Changpao wrote:

10K swimming represents about 2.75 hours of swimming; 13K is about 3.5 hours. So, for my both races I spent about 20 percent of my time swimming. For the full, I averaged 9 hours on the bike (almost all indoors) and 40 miles/ week. For the half, it was 6.75 hrs and 30 miles/ week.

It's been said before, but the rub here is that 2.75h of swimming takes easily double that time. Bike/Run can be done with 5 min prep and a 15min shower. Each swim is that 20min plus 10-20min to the pool each way. Add on that swimming is greatly benefited by high frequency and you've got a major time sink.

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Nov 28, 23 12:57

Post #242 of 309 (2362 views)

He hit a mark in a velodrome. There is a lot more to road cycling than TTing.

Michael Woods and a few more would destroy Sanders on any road race. With right amount of training someone like Woods has the engine to go as fast, but why would he waste his time on this discipline? 51 kph does not win you a time trial against any heavy hitters...Ganna did 56 kph and he does not even dominate the TT discipline. Point being, someone like Woods could train himself to go 51 kph perhaps, but not 56 kph to beat the likes of Remco and actually win.

As others have mentioned they are not being critical, just factual...he can hold his own against a bunch of 12 year old boys. No one is disputing that he is a stronger cyclist than swimmer. But he is a long way from the front of the race on 70.3 if the big boys show up.

And again...being factual, he used to swim a bit faster based on his 1500 m time from a few years ago.

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [Engner66] [ In reply to ]

Nov 28, 23 13:08

Post #243 of 309 (2347 views)

Engner66 wrote:

As others have mentioned they are not being critical, just factual...he can hold his own against a bunch of 12 year old boys. No one is disputing that he is a stronger cyclist than swimmer. But he is a long way from the front of the race on 70.3 if the big boys show up.

And again...being factual, he used to swim a bit faster based on his 1500 m time from a few years ago.

.
.
People get all hurt and mad at facts.

The thing is,Lionel himself says that the playing field has changed and the standard overall lifted. In his videos over the last year he has stated that he is no longer feared in the pro ranks, he has said that he is no longer competitive against the very best,he has said that he needs to find some speed to deal with the short course guys who are moving up to 70.3.He has said all that and more. That honesty is one of the reasons I do like him. The thing is, when Lionel says stuff like that. the rabid fans praise him for being humble and honest but when any of us say exactly the same thing Lionel does, we are told that we are haters. The internet can be a strange place.

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Dec 19, 23 12:45

Post #244 of 309 (1590 views)

LOL this article confirms a sneaky feeling I've always had. "Industry" people sneakily read ST and use ideas, PTN mentioned ST in the PTO part of their podcast today.

Article about LS's swim "improving" or not, even mention OP by ST handle, lol

https://triathlonmagazine.ca/...6pGLAQUvR85rxJc00Sag

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]

Dec 19, 23 14:20

Post #245 of 309 (1518 views)

B_Doughtie wrote:

LOL this article confirms a sneaky feeling I've always had. "Industry" people sneakily read ST and use ideas, PTN mentioned ST in the PTO part of their podcast today.

Article about LS's swim "improving" or not, even mention OP by ST handle, lol

https://triathlonmagazine.ca/...6pGLAQUvR85rxJc00Sag

.
.
Kevin Mackinnon is like a bloody sneaky Ninja,he is everywhere and has been covering all things Triathlon for decades. The dude knows his "Triathlon Gossip" more than most as he is one of the cool "Old school" guys who have adapted very well to the modern Tri era.He is like Belinda Granger who seems to turn up at every event everywhere in some sort of official capacity. Nothing but respect for Kevin,even if his blatant Canadian patriotism shines through in every Lionel article. He is a great bloke too. :-)

An article from earlier this month pimping his "The Life of Tri" podcast where he interviews none other than the new boss of ST.
The Life of Tri: Australia and the world of triathlon with Eric Wynn - Triathlon Magazine Canada
Episode #70 - The life of Tri | Podcast on Spotify

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]

Dec 19, 23 15:17

Post #246 of 309 (1474 views)

B_Doughtie wrote:

LOL this article confirms a sneaky feeling I've always had. "Industry" people sneakily read ST and use ideas, PTN mentioned ST in the PTO part of their podcast today.

Article about LS's swim "improving" or not, even mention OP by ST handle, lol

https://triathlonmagazine.ca/...6pGLAQUvR85rxJc00Sag

I'm really happy to see this. He's pretty quiet lately but I know he's been training hard and that's why.

According to coach Justin Slade, though, Sanders is doing exactly what he needs to do to improve. The video highlights a tough workout Sanders did with the group that included 10 sets of a 150 followed by 3 x 50. According to Slade, Sanders is making progress and IS swimming fast.
“He got in and swam this morning,” Slade said. “I don’t know what you people want. He gets in and he swims. He swam fast. He swam fast, tired.”

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Dec 19, 23 15:47

Post #247 of 309 (1450 views)

Writing foul by not citing the thread in his foot notes.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Dec 20, 23 5:43

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]

Dec 20, 23 5:18

Post #248 of 309 (1282 views)

I was disappointed to find out the article merely recycles social media content. It's more like Tri Today (100% recycling) than Tri247 (some recycling, but some original writing as well).

I thought the author would actually offer some new insight from said coach - both new, and insight - and not just quote a vague snippet that the coach blurted out in Lionel's video. (Coach Justin, I am once again confused, is presented as Lionel's swim coach while I thought Lionel was back to Gerry Rodriguez? He had worked with Justin at Aquabears before, as I understand, and is now using him as an on-deck advisor? Or training based on Justin's prescription?)

It's clickbait.

We made it to an article, but not a great article.

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Last edited by: kajet: Dec 20, 23 5:20

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [kajet] [ In reply to ]

Dec 20, 23 8:22

Post #249 of 309 (1211 views)

He offered the most real insight, it's just not the ah ha moment that's going to lead to fairy tale social media loving posts and 30s drop in time. LS's likely biggest issue is two fold- 1) He's likely already maxed out 98% of his "time gains" in the water (again we are talking about an incredible fast triathlete swimmer; we are now basically comparing him to the best; but that's what he has to get too in order to win a world title) 2) His lack of flexibility / mobility are likely the biggest cause and affect on his swim. That's not really something fixed in 6 weeks.

I only found the article after I was scrolling through social media and found the article; I wouldn't even have mentioned it in this thread if it wasn't basically a complete recap of this very thread and ST being directly mentioned. I just thought it was funny, and confirms many people "creep" this site, much more than they are willing to admit.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Dec 20, 23 8:24

Re: Lionel Sander's swim meet [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]

Dec 20, 23 15:04

Post #250 of 309 (1129 views)

Quote:

1) He's likely already maxed out 98% of his "time gains" in the water

This is probably the only thing in your assessment that I would disagree with. I've been playing around with the EO Lab Sensors and they confirmed what I've suspected about triathletes for a while. Professional triathletes in the swim are nowhere near their maximums in the water.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

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