Some would say the Olympics is a larger stage than Kona.

Sure, but they would be the very small minority in the U.S.......

all you whiners should have just ridden your bikes to the airport ;)

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//semi retired - old school = http://www.iwilltri.com //

A small minority are able to compete at the Olympics, or a small minority would say the olympics are a bigger stage than Kona?

In case it's the latter, that really surprises me. The Olympics is seen by most of the world as the pinnacle of triathlon, not to mention all the prize money that's on offer for the top ITU guys.

You know, now that you mention it, I did see someone leaving T2 after the race on his bike with an aero helmet on. Thought he was heading to the hotel, but maybe he was going to the airport. What kind of looks would you get wheeling into the terminal at DFW on a bike wearing an aero helmet?

If I had a couple million lying around I would throw it at one of the indie Iron Distance races for prize money and make them move their race to the same week as Kona, just to see what would happen. I suspect the big boys would come to the indie if first place was $500 000.

I would say that here in the U.S. nobody really cares about 1. short course, or 2. triathlon in the Olympics. Now, as athletes, we do short course (non-drafting) and most of us probably watch the Olympics, but on a whole Kona is far more important to triathlon (athletes and spectators) than the Olympics are. Maybe some of this has to do with the fact that the Olympics only roll around once every 4 years and to this point triathlon has only been in two of them. Maybe it will get bigger, I don't know. As it stands now, Kona is *the* race, and it means far more to our sport (U.S.) than the Olympics does. Maybe this is different in other parts of the world. I have no idea, and could really care less to be honest.

the Prize $$$ alone will make it bigger, but not neccesarily more significant in the eyes of the public. There were 2k racing in Kona and 2k racing in Dallas. Assuming Lifetime stays committed, I would suggest this series will get much bigger, but it will not reach the spectacle or mystique of Kona. I do agree it is not quite apples to apples comparison. Kona (and IM in general) has NBC and the tear jerking stories to its credit. Even at its best, the US open has top notch racing, which the vast portion of society (not ST or tri-community) could care less about.

Plus, the fact is IM is pitched as the unattainable, the crazy, or the way out there goal. An oly tri happens every weekend.

That all said, I will support the US open as long as it is here in Dallas. I would probably not race it it were it outside close driving distance.

Wow, that's arrogant. Do you own a passport?

Don't be a tool. We are talking about triathlon here, not some really important issue. Yes, I have a passport, and yes I have traveled extensively. Don't make this out to be something it's not.

The Garmin in my rental car proved worthwhile. The 'little lady' said, "Traffic Ahead", and I just pressed the Detour button, and I still made it to the airport in less than 30 minutes from the Hilton. The traffic looked horrible. I've never been to a city with more roads, on-ramps, off-ramps, and just so much concrete in general. It was pretty crazy.

It was a great weekend. I did the sprint, and my daughter and son in law did the OLY. Both of them got awards. I hope they keep funding this series. It really motivated us to work harder. It was really cool to be out there with that talent. I sponsor 3 running events a year in my town, and it is pure charity let me tell you. Dont knock these sponsors for picking a date that coincides with your favorite event. If Kona is the top, then it will fend for itself.
I am 45 years old and hooked on this sport. I hope it spreads.
BTW, How do you fly to a city, rent a car that will hold 3 bikes and get where you need to go? That seems stressful to me. Dallas was bad enough and we drove.

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"Im not young enough to know everything."
Oscar Wilde

You're right, it's just triathlon. I just thought you might want to open your mind to the fact that most of the world would probably say the Olympics and ITU racing are a bigger deal than Kona. If you want proof, just follow the money. $2.5m in prizes over 15 races in next year's ITU world cup circuit. The biggest paydays in triathlon are going to short course athletes at Hy-Vee, Lifetime, etc. National federations are pumping millions into short course athlete development. There is a reason why the majority of talented young triathletes stay in ITU/short course racing: bigger prize money, more sponsorship opportunities, formal talent id and development programmes, the opportunity to represent their country on the world's biggest athletic stage - the Olympics. Kona is an increadible race and has a mystique that may never be matched by another triathlon but, don't kid yourself, at the moment the money and the majority (not all) of the best triathletes in the world are in short course.

No kidding..........Dallas, land of everlasting concrete!

The highway system here is too crazy to believe. On-ramps, off-ramps, U-turn lanes, 5 lanes feeding into 2......you name it, they got it. Driving around here is a real adventure.

Did you get to see any median driving while you were here? That was quite a surprise the first time I witnessed it.

G

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It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

Just so you know where I stand....I think ITU racing sucks ass. I hate draft legal racing and only watch it during the Olympics because, well, it's the Olympics. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of U.S. age groupers feel the same way. As far as I am concerned that's the second (third if you count baseball) sport that the rest of the world has messed up. The other being basketball of course :).

Hey, I prefer non-drafting as well. On the other hand, the reality is that the ITU format is successful and is probably here to stay.

"Hey, I prefer non-drafting as well."

Finally, we agree on something :). Yeah!!!!!!!

"the reality is that the ITU format is successful and is probably here to stay."

For the Olympics, sure. I hope so any ways. I don't know if it is the end all be all in the U.S. right now. I would be interested to know how many ITU type races there are versus USAT type races there are in the U.S. at the moment. Or more importantly, which type our (U.S.) short course athletes prefer.

I do wish all the short course athletes well and hope our sport continues to thrive at this distance. I just don't see any reason for me to be interested as a fan or as an athlete in short course (ITU) type racing at this time. It's just a preference and a difference between the U.S. and the rest of the world. Just like metric versus imperial measurement (I really wish we could change), or our version of football versus the rest of the worlds. Just different, nothing really more than that.

Just call me crazy but I think next year this might be a good race for an ST Smackdown.

It would be a good chance to pit short course ST racers up against the Ironman type racers that for whatever reason didn't make it to Kona in 2008. Just an idea.

Sure, but who in their right mind travels for a short course event? The exception being Alcatraz of course....

Don is right. All the young talent in the world is going towards short course, especially ITU racing. Even in the US. There are a few exceptions, but even freak long course talents like Reinaldo Colucci (brazil) and Terenzo Bozzone (NZL) do a lot of ITU races.

There are 5 ITU races in the US every year. There will probably be more than that after 2008. All of them are required to offer over $10K prize purses. Hy-vee offered $700K + Hummers.

What is it exactly that you guys HATE so much about short course draft legal racing. Is it the drafting? Because the Tour de France has horrible drafting. Is it that the strong cyclists have no shot at winning. Because last weekend at the Greece World Cup, weren't there two breakaways that stuck, which included the top 2 finishers in the men's race. Maybe it's the multiple loop courses. Yeah, those are terrible for spectators, getting to see the competitors come by the transition 10 or more times in one race.

I think you need to go back to the original discussion and the original question. It had something to do along the lines of did LTF plan for this race to be on the same weekend as Kona? The answer is, probably yes. In any event, they did in fact plan on it and had to know that Kona was the same weekend. I know I can't make you happy with any of my answers, but I will attempt to provide some reasonable input so that you can hopefully understand where I am coming from.

" Don is right. All the young talent in the world is going towards short course, especially ITU racing. Even in the US. There are a few exceptions, but even freak long course talents like Reinaldo Colucci (brazil) and Terenzo Bozzone (NZL) do a lot of ITU races. "

This is true. But probably not for the reasons you are getting at. It more than likely has to do with the fact that it takes many more years to develop the endurance needed to do well at the IM distance. Is all the money in ITU racing? Maybe, I don't really know, but it does seem to me that there is more money in non-drafting races in the U.S. at this time. The LTF series appears to be the biggest right now. Is there a bigger pay out for an ITU race in the states? I could be wrong though. BTW...I have no idea who those athletes are as I don't follow draft legal short course, but then again I don't know a lot of winners at the other IM's either so please don't hold that against me. In the end they will probably all end up doing long course. Seems to be a limited shelf like for short course athletes.

"There are 5 ITU races in the US every year. There will probably be more than that after 2008. All of them are required to offer over $10K prize purses. Hy-vee offered $700K + Hummers"

Wow......5 races. There are far more non-draft legal races than that. Hell, there are more IM distance races than that. I think the money is still with the non-drafting format *here*.

"What is it exactly that you guys HATE so much about short course draft legal racing. Is it the drafting? Because the Tour de France has horrible drafting. Is it that the strong cyclists have no shot at winning. Because last weekend at the Greece World Cup, weren't there two breakaways that stuck, which included the top 2 finishers in the men's race. Maybe it's the multiple loop courses. Yeah, those are terrible for spectators, getting to see the competitors come by the transition 10 or more times in one race. I'd much rather watch an empty transition area for 8 hours while I wait for Macca to finish his 4+ hour ride and 2hr 40min+ run. "

You guys? Does that mean Americans, or athletes that don't like draft legal racing? It's not just a U.S. thing you know. In any event, I would guess it has to do with a difference in religion. Same reason that I (and most Americans) can't stand watching soccer or hockey. It's just a difference and by the way- it doesn't make us bad people :). ITU racing is painful to watch and very boring. But here is the real truth; all triathlons are fairly boring to watch. At least with Kona I can identify with what the average athlete is doing. I have friends there. I want to get there. I race IM, my goal is to get to Kona. I have no connection to short course racing and especially ITU racing. Triathlon is, by an large a lifestyle sport. The fans are typically other triathletes and family members/ friends, not random people with no connection to the sport.

The Olympics are really painful to watch and the last two have just been one big pack until the start of the run. I am hoping China will be different, but the athletes are so closely matched that it is probably unavoidable. Couldn't they just start with the 10k and be done with it? Sure there are times when a break away happens. It can be sort of fun to watch. Sort of. I am not sure you can compare a < 2 hour race with the 3 week TdF. That's a poor comparison. They're just not the same......at all. In any event, the only stages I really watch are the mountains and the ITT. If they ever do the TTT again I'll watch that as well even though it has drafting.

So back to the original topic that took this thread (OP) off topic. Do you think that any short course race, or series is more important than Kona to triathlon in the U.S.? Of course not. All you have to do is pick up either of the two magazines available here to figure that out. Where is the TV coverage (think NBC or Versus)? Where are the endorsements going? I am a triathlete and a fan, yet outside of Hunter Kemper and Andyo Potts I can't name two other U.S. citizens that do short course. I did read that someone claimed an Olympic spot just a few weeks ago. I don't think I ever heard his name before I read the article, and I don't remember it nw.

Sounds like the rest of the world prefers draft legal short course triathlon. That's great. I wish you all nothing but the best, just don't expect me to watch it, support it, or try to convince me that I should like it.

"open your mind to the fact that most of the world would probably say the Olympics and ITU racing are a bigger deal than Kona."

Bingo.

Here in Canada, Simon Whitfield became a household name after winning Olympic gold. Nobody knows who Peter Reid is outside of the small numbers that are involved in IM.

ITU races make entertaining television and are introducing the general public to the sport. In contrast, it's a struggle to watch two hours of Kona on NBC once a year.

IM is a significant personal challenge, but has a very small following in the big picture of sport.

A few important points that you seem to be missing:

1. Who win the big payday non-drafting short-course races in the states? ITU pros like Henning and Bennett.

2. American short course guys compete all over the world on the ITU world cup circuit, so suggesting that the ITU isn't a big deal for American pro triathletes on the basis that there aren't that many American ITU races, or that their paydays aren't enormous, isn't accurate.

3. Of course it's fine if you prefer long-course non-drafting races, and if you identify more with Kona and IM athletes than with the Olympics and the ITU pros. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and, as I've already said, I prefer non-drafting (whether short course or long course). That's a separate matter, though, from whether Kona or the Olympics is "triathlon's biggest stage". The fact is that the guys who race at the Olympics are, on average, earning more than IM pros. In general, money attracts talent, and this is why right now the majority of the best in the world are racing in the ITU and looking for a shot at the Olympics. Money, worldwide media exposure, depth of athletic talent, potential national hero status...these are the reasons why the Olympics are triathlon's biggest stage.

Okay, we have deviated from the main thread, but oh well.

"Wow......5 races. There are far more non-draft legal races than that. Hell, there are more IM distance races than that. I think the money is still with the non-drafting format *here*."

Every ITU racer also races non drafting short course. As a matter of fact, they are dominant at non-drafting races up to HIM.

"You guys? Does that mean Americans"

No, I meant tjs and donm. If you forced Americans to watch 8 hours of an Ironman race and then 2 hours of an ITU race, I bet 95% or more would say they enjoyed ITU better. Obviously not fair, but that's the point. Triathlon is boring, but Ironman is REALLY boring. The NBC show isn't triathlon, it's happy stories. I would also challenge you to watch the World Cup coverage when it is aired on FoxSports and then come back and tell me how terrible it was.

"The Olympics are really painful to watch and the last two have just been one big pack until the start of the run."

Absolutely untrue. In Athens there was a breakaway on the bike which led to the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 8th place finishers. Did the triathlon end in a running race? Yes. Didn't Hawaii this weekend?

Finally, back to the original topic.
"Do you think that any short course race, or series is more important than Kona to triathlon in the U.S.?"

Yes I think the Olympics are more important than Kona in the US. I can guarantee you that the winner of the Olympic Triathlon will be in every newspaper in every major city around the US. There was a thread this week that basically said there were 0 big city papers mentioning Kona. I also think that you could probably find major papers that listed the ITU World Championship winners in the US, but Im not as sure about that. Oh and don't forget that Foxsports airs an ITU World Cup almost once a week the entire summer/fall.

I am not even sure I know what we are debating at this point. If we are debating about where the best pros are at, what is more important, where the money is at, etc. I'll get back to what I think was the original debate and that was which race (Olympics versus Kona) is more important in the U.S.. I can't say it's the Olympics. Maybe one day it will be, but it's not right now. By and large triathlon is not a spectator sport here. If you are a fan it's because you yourself are a triathlete, or a family member is. So in short, the only people here (U.S.) that follow triathlon are triathletes and their family and friends. That being said, I have a large group of triathlon friends in a very large triathlon market/town. I can't think of one who would say that the Olympics are more important than Kona. I am not sure this is true for the rest of the world, but at least one Kona winner turned down the chance to compete at the Olympics for the opportunity win the most prestigious and defining race our sport has. I think he made the right choice, and I'll bet he does as well.

In response to your comments:

"1. Who win the big payday non-drafting short-course races in the states? ITU pros like Henning and Bennett. "

Yes. You're right. Who cares? It is short course and ITU. There just isn't a following her *that I see*. Not like the IM championships any ways. The best athletes may be doing short course. Or, they may be doing a distance that suits them. It's not like long course athletes are short course rejects or vice versa.

"2. American short course guys compete all over the world on the ITU world cup circuit, so suggesting that the ITU isn't a big deal for American pro athletes on the basis that there aren't that many American ITU races, or that their paydays aren't enormous, isn't accurate. "

I never said the ITU wasn't important for the athletes. I am sure it is. That's how they get paid. It must be important. What I said (or meant to say) is that this format isn't really followed (fan perspective) by and large here as much as Kona. Need proof? Look at how many posts are generated regarding Kona every year on this forum versus any short course or ITU race. Let's compare the biggest winning pay day that just happened to the last IM race. Where is the interest? It is quite obviously in Kona. Maybe the athletes are more interested in short course and ITU racing. That's great- but it doesn't make it more popular or more significant than Kona. In the end there is one race every year that everyone looks forward to. It's not some short course event in some random city, and it's not a race held every 4 years. It's Kona.

"3. Of course it's fine if you prefer long-course non-drafting races, and if you identify more with Kona and IM athletes than with the Olympics and the ITU pros. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and, as I've already said, I prefer non-drafting (whether short course or long course). That's a separate matter, though, from whether Kona or the Olympics is "triathlon's biggest stage". The fact is that the guys who race at the Olympics are, on average, earning more than IM pros. In general, money attracts talent, and this is why right now the majority of the best in the world are racing in the ITU and looking for a shot at the Olympics. Money, worldwide media exposure, depth of athletic talent, potential national hero status...these are the reasons why the Olympics are triathlon's biggest stage."

We obviously don't agree on the biggest stage for the U.S. Keep in mind, I am not talking about for just the athletes. This is for the whole sport (athletes and fans). Maybe if we could have a forum pole and ask what race each person thinks is more important we could get a real understanding. Until then we are going to be left debating on which race is more significant. At this time though I really don't see a comparison.

"In general, money attracts talent, and this is why right now the majority of the best in the world are racing in the ITU and looking for a shot at the Olympics. Money, worldwide media exposure, depth of athletic talent, potential national hero status...these are the reasons why the Olympics are triathlon's biggest stage.""

This is all true, but it still hasn't made ITU style or short course racing more popular fan or spectator-wise than IM or non-draft racing as a whole in the U.S.. I still disagree with the biggest stage as well. I can't remember the woman who won the bronze medal for the U.S. at the last games. I do know my country had one winner (third place any ways) though. Of the first Olympics I remember Michellie Jones winning silver but only because I was pulling for here due to her short course dominance the decade before. Can't remember the other two though. Can't remember the top three men at all. I would be willing to bet that if I ask 10 of my friends (triathlete friends) who the past winners won they would get maybe one or two. I bet they could all tell me who won Kona the last five years. See what I mean?