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Lance claims unfair treatment
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http://msn.foxsports.com/...doping-crisis-013013

and it continues.....
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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Read it on cyclingnews too. I actually think somemofnhis view points makes sense but he should have stated this six months ago or earlier. Now it is just too late. LA has no place in any sport
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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There is an element of truth. He is being held to blame for all the doping in the peleton at the time.

Is the peleron clean now? No. Contador, Schleck etc. There is little difference, just better science.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [irncpl] [ In reply to ]
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Agree but thing is he was offered same terms as anyone else, as far as i know, but rejected. He hoped it would blow over and his usual approach would work. Now he comes back and wants fairness...oh my god
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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''What is relevant is that everyone is treated equally and fairly,'' he said. ''We all made the mess, let's all fix the mess, and let's all be punished equally.''

I don't think punished is the word he was looking for. Since he wants everyone to have amnesty.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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At face value, everything lance says is valid. The problem is, the messenger. The guy who is saying all of the things in the article once said, and quite vehemently, "We have nothing to hide. We have nothing to run from. It's our word against his word. I like our word. We like our credibility."

Needless to say, lance was lying through his teeth.

And now, perhaps when he needs it most, nothing he says has even a shred of credibility left. Including this.

He's done.

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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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Steve-oH! wrote:
http://msn.foxsports.com/cycling/story/lance-armstrong-says-truth-reconciliation-program-only-way-to-deal-with-doping-crisis-013013

and it continues.....

Given his actions over the past 20 years, and the words that have come out of his mouth in the last few weeks...Lance neeeds help, and a lot of it. The last thing he should be worried about is trying to get back to competing.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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''The 'help' has evolved over the years but the fact remains that our sport is damn hard, the Tour was invented as a stunt, and very tough (riders) have competed for a century and all looked for advantages, from hopping on trains 100 years ago to EPO now,'' he said.
''No generation was exempt or 'clean.' Not Merckx's, not Hinault's, not LeMond's, not Coppi's, not Gimondi's, not Indurain's, not Anquetil's, not Bartali's, and not mine.'
now his defense, is accusing everybody of doing it, 2 wrong don't make a right
Ironman was also invented has a stunt to find out who was the best swimmer, biker or runner. what's your point Lance?
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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I think he has a valid point. Frankly, it makes me a little uncomfortable that he was singled out while a guy like Levi Leipheimer gets off with no punishment. I don't feel bad for the guy, he is a complete jerk and deserves his punishment. I just feel like something other than cleaning up cycling is driving Travis Tygart.

Dimond Bikes
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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>I think he has a valid point. Frankly, it makes me a little uncomfortable that he was singled out while a guy like Levi Leipheimer gets off with no punishment...

Come on now. Levi and Lance were offered the same three choices:

a) make a formal admission to USADA and get lenient treatment
b) go to arbitration to fight the charges
c) do nothing, and face harsh sanction.

Levi went with a). Lance chose c).
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Come on now. Levi and Lance were offered the same three choices:

a) make a formal admission to USADA and get lenient treatment
b) go to arbitration to fight the charges
c) do nothing, and face harsh sanction.


I'm not sure that's completely correct. While Levi took the first option and received a six month ban, did he lose any of his past victories? I honestly don't know the answer to that question but I don't recall ever hearing that he did.

I'm guessing Lance was not given that same option.

EDIT: btw, I have no sympathy for Lance but I also have no sympathy for Levi, George, et al. For all that I'm concerned, I'd prefer it if they all just went away and were never heard from again.

------------------------------
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Last edited by: logella: Jan 30, 13 17:48
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [logella] [ In reply to ]
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>I'm not sure that's completely correct. While Levi took the first option and received a six month ban, did he lose any of his past victories? I honestly don't know the answer to that question but I don't recall ever hearing that he did.

We'll never know what deal Lance might have gotten. But I'd speculate it'd be way less severe than what he got.

My point is that Lance can't have it both ways.

He basically gambled everything on invalidating the USADA process either through payoffs, or legal intervention. And he lost that gamble. Now he wants to go back in time and get the Levi-Horner-Zabriskie deal because his first choice of action failed. But that's not how it works.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [logella] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, everyone who got sanctioned by USADA got their palmares from that period wiped away. Some races have asked for return of prize money, some haven't. Lance is feeling the punishment the most because he has the most to lose.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [trail] [ In reply to ]
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"Come on now. Levi and Lance were offered the same three choices:"

nevertheless, and pardon the analogy, but to me the focus is on the thug who beats people up, and who gets the death sentence, but the guy who held the victim down, and the guys who stood overtop and watched the beatings - and never said a word - are spending their off season in jail. neither george, nor levi, nor dz, nor vdv, nor anyone of the rest of that crowd, would ever have said word one. let me put this in perspective. levi knew the entire time that betsy andreu and
emma o'reilly were getting a bad rap and shabby treatment. he never lifted a finger. never said a word. for a decade and more. nor would he ever have said a word to this day to right those wrongs. nor would any of them. does this lessen lance's culpabillity? not a bit. however, one guy gets life. the others are banned from racing all those big money races that take place between thanksgiving and easter. further, they are basically called heroes by USADA. if this is not a full justification and use, by USADA, of the nuremburg defense, i do not know what else to call it. i'm not saying that lance should get levi's penalty. if anything, it should be the other way around. mostly i'm just saying that the delta between the penalties is much greater than can be justified by the fact that some of these guys - after a decade of doping and silence - rolled a few months before lance did.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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Well, that explains it..

http://www.theatlantic.com/...ce-armstrong/272568/

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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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> i'm just saying that the delta between the penalties is much greater than can be justified by the fact that some of these guys - after a decade of doping and silence - rolled a few months before lance did.

That statement, coming from you, means something. Because you have been fairly consistent in championing transparent and reasonable balance between athlete's process-rights and identifying and punishing behavior corrosive to sport.

But the subject is "Lance claims..." He has not been...er, consistent, and has a minor conflict-of-interest at this point in arguing for honestly and amnesty. And a credibility problem for the conditions under which he arrived at this position.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [trail] [ In reply to ]
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"He has not been...er, consistent, and has a minor conflict-of-interest at this point in arguing for honestly and amnesty"

i know lance pretty well. i'm not one of the inside guys. but i think i've got a pretty good handle on where he's at, i've known him since his teenage days, and, maybe i'm blind, but, i don't think so. i think lance makes a tactical decision and once that decision's made, he's all in. that's lance in every circumstance, during the almost 25 years i've known him.

i think once he decided on cycling, he was all in. once he decided that it's cycling under the influence, he was all in. now that he's made the tactical pivot to transparency, he's all in. well, most in. he's necessarily telling the whole truth and all the truth. i think he's hanging back a bit, because i don't think he feels it's fair and safe to be the ONLY guy who's telling the entire truth.

remember, floyd and tyler lied consistently. but once they decided to pivot, i don't know anybody who really thinks tyler is making it all up now. i think tyler's pretty believable. i don't think it's naive to say of tyler, floyd, lance, i understand that they lied, i understand why they lied, but now that they've made their pivot they are, on the whole, telling the truth.

but my point was this. here's how USADA described athletes who doped, who either abetted, or at least witnessed, every bad thing lance did, who saw their friends and friends loved ones suffer, never said a word, never lifted a hand, and only now came clean because they were caught: "[they] have been courageous in making the choice to stop perpetuating the sporting fraud, and they have suffered greatly... they love the sport, and they want to help young athletes... these athletes, if forgiven and embraced, have a chance to leave a legacy far greater for the good of the sport than anything they ever did on a bike."

bullshit. the athletes gave up evidence because and only because they were caught. they are lauded so by USADA because they were useful to USADA. i don't mind if USADA gives reduced sentences to athletes who give useful evidence. but to laud them as courageous sufferers who came forward of their own accord because of their love of cycling, rehabilitated role models to young athletes, i've got a problem with that. the chasm between penalties is huge; the fiction USADA is spinning about these dopers is laughable.

lance's behavior was bad and worse than bad. but as bad as his actions were - and whether you take his mea culpas at face value or not - i am impressed by the quality of the apology. i don't see that sort of apology, yet, from tygart's courageous sufferers. i haven't seen any of them apologize to the andreus for witnessing everything and doing nothing.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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The only thing that I don't like of all of this is the fact that they took everything away from Lance (which I completely agree this should), but others who have been caught for doping only lose the results from the race they were caught in, and have been allowed to come back and succeed. Prime example is Vinokourov; he's still credited from his results before he got caught, he came back and won an Olympic gold medal.

I think everyone ever caught should lose everything and not be allowed to come back, not just lance. I can understand why he would be pissed off about that.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:

>I
He basically gambled everything on invalidating the USADA process either through payoffs, or legal intervention. And he lost that gamble. Now he wants to go back in time and get the Levi-Horner-Zabriskie deal because his first choice of action failed. But that's not how it works.

The Levi-Horner-Zabriskie deal never should have happened. I'd be a lot that Lance was never offered the option of, "Look... You just tell us if you doped or not, you're not going to lose any tdf titles or any results, just tell us what happened and you can serve a 6 month ban and get back into it". It was probably more along the lines of, "listen here you shit head, we know you doped and when we find out we're going to ruin you. Here are your options, come clean and maybe you'll get to race again someday, don't come clean and risk never racing again."

I feel like it was almost a bribe that led to everyone talking up against him. I'm not defending Lance, I think everyone should get the same punishment.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I had a big long response, but am deleting it, and just boiling it down to this.

A question for you. Lance wants complete amnesty through the TRC, right? I assume the process is something like: a) you come to the TRC and admit doping, and b) you get amnesty. Pretty simple.

But the TRC process would have a c) option. Which is you don't come to the TRC, even though you qualify as a doper past or present. Some athletes will take this option. If the athletes who take option c) subsequently get caught, but give heartfelt public apologies, what do you think we should do with them?

Should they get the same b) that everyone else got, so we treat everyone the same? Or should there be a wide disparity between treatment of the two classes of dopers to maintain the incentive for athletes to take option a)? What if an athlete tries to corrupt the TRC, then sue it out of existence, and *then* gives a heartfelt public apology? If we treat him harshly, should we retroactively give everyone in b) an equal punishment because they doped just as much and didn't *really* apologize?

I don't like to be snarky....but damn, I'm just having a really hard time sympathizing.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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How is anything he says in that interview valid? It is clear he raised the bar of cheating and promoted it further than it would have been otherwise. Honestly - how can he think he is like the others? What a dip shit. I think he needs electroshock therapy to get his head into a working state.


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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [ian moone] [ In reply to ]
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ian moone wrote:
''The 'help' has evolved over the years but the fact remains that our sport is damn hard, the Tour was invented as a stunt, and very tough (riders) have competed for a century and all looked for advantages, from hopping on trains 100 years ago to EPO now,'' he said.
''No generation was exempt or 'clean.' Not Merckx's, not Hinault's, not LeMond's, not Coppi's, not Gimondi's, not Indurain's, not Anquetil's, not Bartali's, and not mine.'
now his defense, is accusing everybody of doing it, 2 wrong don't make a right
Ironman was also invented has a stunt to find out who was the best swimmer, biker or runner. what's your point Lance?

This guy displays no remorse. He says he is sorry to all the people he has almost destroyed but then he bashes them again. He is basically taking a jab at Greg LeMond again. What a tool he is.


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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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meh. the more lance talks, the less i like him.

his pattern of self-serving behaviour continues. he's spent years cruxifying other riders and now seems suddenly very deeply interested in a 'truth and reconciliation' process. (leaving aside how ridiculous that term is - we're talking about grown men racing bicycles, not apartheid.)

he's tried to have the whole bloody thing his way - he's still never actually testified, he's only confessed to oprah. what? if you're so bloody concerned about making right, lance, why not call UCI and WADA and all Le Tour and make things right, on their terms? why is your first call to oprah?

the sooner he goes away the better.

-mike

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http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
whether you take his mea culpas at face value or not - i am impressed by the quality of the apology.



everything else you've (eloquently) said aside, i quarrel with this part.

i am singularly unimpressed with the quality of the 'apology.' (and with the form and timing of its delivery.)

-mike

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Last edited by: iron_mike: Jan 31, 13 3:05
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