He won against a bunch of other cheaters/dopers, I suspect the results would be close to the same if non of them doped, a lot of people made money off him and his success he really does not owe anyone anything.

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My Blog of Me

Would not have changed fact that he doped (a lot) , however, there would still be value. Some evidence should be tossed (99 samples were 'tested' without permission.) and a challenge to nulliffying the statute of limitations might have been fruitful. There is nothing in WADA code that says it can be extended for any reason. This was just based upon US legal precedence, not the WADA process. He might have still saved 5 of them FWIW. It would have been entertaining as He'll, too.

I won't wait breathlessly for the UCI to strip all the other heroes of cycling throughout the ages that still walk tall in the sun:

Anquetil
Indurain
Merckx
Hinault
Pantani
Riis
Ullrich
Lemond (probably - iron deficiency my ass)

I mean, look at this list, give me a break:

http://en.wikipedia.org/...ur_de_France_winners


or all the stage winners, yes, including probably Jens Voigt.

Armstrong, asshole he is, is just a fall guy right now. Granted he made he gets to rest on a bed of money when he goes to sleep, but the notion that Armstrong did anything different than what a hundred cycling champions have done in the past and 99% of them aren't getting stripped, then he becomes the noble fall guy.

I'd be interested to see if he keeps quiet. If he does, then ironically he is the only one with some measure of integrity in this entire affair. Tygart/USADA is just a headline-seeking holier-than-thou organization interested in wasting money on this rather than improve testing and catch current dopers. All the riders made their choices and now want it both ways. The sponsors made their money with full knowledge, and now that the economics don't make sense dumped out. The only person who has so far adhered to a code (whether or not that code is justified or right or moral or ethical is a long separate discussion) is Armstrong. He's probably doing it out of self interest (hoping it blows over), but he still is the one with some twisted sense of honor.

Maybe that's why I defend this guy who is a probably an asshole/possible sociopath (although a lot of the worst stories seem to be from the rejected sycophants) and "cheater" (again, if everyone, _everyone_ is on it, then how is he cheating).

Funny thing is, every time an account comes out that portrays Armstrong as an utter sociopath bad guy, it always comes out of the mouth of someone that was also trying to use him sociopathically. The bike shop guy wanted to get set up with his own bike shop just for being a gofer. The teammates just wanted to live the pro lifestyle and get away with what they did, so they blame him. The sponsors, well, they're corporations, the sociopathy is just good business. The UCI/coaches/team/entire machinery of decades of cycling is a sociopathic enterprise injecting athletes like horses and raking in the dough, and they wanted their American connection for more money.

Dev, you have to understand they are not doing well financially, i.e. 75% taxation on the rich so they have to get money any way they can :)

Disclaimer: The above is meant as a joke, just want to make it clear based on all the sensitivity around here lately...

Peace out

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______________________________________
"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD

Team Aquaphor 06-08

Since no one else has answered the question, maybe you will....

under what legal procedures would you remove those names from the list of TdF winners? (pssst...here's a hint - there isn't any).

Everyone keeps bringing this up as if it somehow excuses their fallen hero....it doesn't. the fact that people keep bringing it up simply demonstrates that they have no understanding of how USADA stripped him of his titles.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Maybe you can get the BIG ONE! But I guess if that ever happens LA will do an Oprah special. :)

Agree that Lance's fierce competitive nature might turn to revenge, but a confession won't happen until his ego is reduced to only 2 times normal size.

Does Asics make a yellow and black shoe? Does that mean that Asics is complicit in his doping? Does that mean another bonfire? Ugh, I just can't keep up with all the shit I have to burn tonight. /said with a pinkish hue/

I guess it's kinda sad that former riders can admit they cheated to win but claim legality for why they are still the winners. Seems kinda hollow I guess. Which is why I asked is that the only reason Riis is still the winner? Statue of limitation?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Just because a number of athletes are on drugs, does not mean their playing field is even more level than what it would be without. Thats a chemical race between doctors, not a sporting event. Its arguments like this that have helped keep cycling in the state its in.

that's it....statute of limitations.

And I agree that it is hollow in terms of their victories....but the reality is that there is no procedure to change any of those "victories." (and as a side note, there is also no specific evidence linked to those riders victories, either....but let's not let details derail the discussion).

w/ LA, there were specific rules that allowed them to extend the SoL when he refused to cooperate. Further, there is specific evidence linked to each one of his Tour victories. Whether those rules are "correct" or not is immaterial (I personally think it is kinda BS).

But let's please stop this charade of the "LA witch hunt". It simply isn't true.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

"Everyone keeps bringing this up as if it somehow excuses their fallen hero"

Or maybe, some of us talk about those things because we see that the LA/USPS case is just part of a bigger whole and that focus on that part, no matter how large it is, will allow the remainder of the sport to slide away under the cover of LA's downfall. I don't want to see LA wiggle out from under all the fallout he's well and truly earned. But you need look no further than Paddy Daddy McQuaid's tough talk on LA to see they are angling to keep the focus off of the things they did and the things that are ongoing in the sport. If he and Verbruggen truly care about the sport, they would think long and hard to come up with the answer that wholesale housecleaning is due across the sport, starting with stepping down themselves.

Right now you've got guys like Lefevre, who DS'd in that era, with multiple doping riders essentially able to say "Nothing to see here, keep looking into that USPS mess. None of us were involved in that. Cycling is so much better today." And then we read the next headline about the huge scope of the Padua investigation and the lie is put to every word out of all of their mouths regarding ongoing doping. It's Festina 2.0.

In other words, some of us aren't saying, "Hey, look, they all did it, so taking it away from LA is too harsh." Rather, we're saying, "It was not just USPS and we ought to keep digging and carving until all the cancer is removed."

Almost none of this compares to the real lawsuit that will impact Lance; Floyd Landis' Qui Tam lawsuit. One would that that with UCI not challenging the USADA ban, US Feds will join Landis' case if they haven't already, which would give even more power to that case.

All good Francois. I'm certainly not hiding where I stand on this topic. I've already said in a number of areas, and Lance could have used this opportunity to come clean and pave the way for a cleaner sport. The public would have forgiven him, even though it would be a near term hit for him personally. In hindsight, all of this looks a hell of a lot worse. Maybe he listened to his lawyers and PR guys too much. I don't know.

I'm just a realist and sees how Lance like behavior happens in any industry where there is a ton of money and competitve accolades at stake where the money goes to the guy/team that wins the competition. It is sad that the world works this way. Like you, I don't like it. There is insider trading going on in Wall Street just like doping in the peloton. The guys who live in that competitive world slowly slide off to a different set of values from the rest of us. At first I was disgusted by Vino's "non repenting behaviour". Now I see that he is coming from where every doped cyclist is coming from....some of these guys see doping like driving a car at 65 mph in a 55 mph zone. Whereas we see it more like murder. These guys have different values from us (as does the UCI). They are all in a form of collusion to dupe the public.


I've lost my fair share in the business world because I'm not willing to go and cheat in a competitive business environment. Others do. As tri4balance said....nothing good ever comes of doping. You can replace doping with cheating. Nothing good comes of it. Easiest way to live our lives is not going somewhere where we feel we might need to "explain our way out of". Somehow money clouds that judgement for many.

I HOPE that pro triathlon is somewhat cleaner, but I doubt it. It is a cut throat competitive world too, albeit with lower finanacial rewards. But as Kevin Moats showed, the rewards don't need to be financial for people to slide that way. Just beating the competition is motivation enough for many.

Just because I understand the human psychology behind why people behave that way, does not mean I excuse Moats, or Lance or the IMFlorida peloton, or Finman or the IMCozumel douche crew. I'm just explaining that I can see how it happens. That is totally different from accepting that it is the right thing to do. Subtle but huge difference.

Will he ever come clean and apologize and help move the sport forward? The door is still open. At this point there appears like there is ZERO to lose. All he may have hoped to keep is publicly gone anyway.

I'm really confused. Keeping quiet ('omerta') gives someone integrity in your mind? Adhering to a code of honor... But then you describe it as a "twisted sense of honor". Which is it? It gives someone integrity, or it's twisted?

But I agree with you on the last part. He's probably an asshole and possibly a sociopath.

There is nothing that I would rather see than the UCI decapitated....nothing. I have said for YEARS that the biggest problem within cycling are the very people who are supposed to promote and grow the sport. They are killing it.

But bringing up a list of past winners who may or may not have doped is diversionary, at best. I don't see people saying "What about the UCI (or the team doctors and directors etc). They are only focused on the "well what about these guys?"...and it is a pretty weak argument, IMO because it is just playing "tit for tat".

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

What exactly is the IMCozumel douche crew, because I missed that one?

Not true. If he admitted and apologized today, feds would certainly back Landis' Qui Tam lawsuit immediately and go after repayment plus penalties and damages for the USPS money. Then you'd certainly have SCA fighting to get their money back plus many others. Even if they arent all successful, some would be and others would eat at Lance's financial health through legal fees.

"But bringing up a list of past winners who may or may not have doped is diversionary, at best. I don't see people saying "What about the UCI (or the team doctors and directors etc). They are only focused on the "well what about these guys?"...and it is a pretty weak argument, IMO because it is just playing "tit for tat"."

Fair enough.

The discussion at hand was about stripping titles. A number of us have, in fact, advocated for repercussions against UCI, USAC, and other related entities in other threads. They are clearly warranted. Or at least significant serious investigation into the implications of overlooked tests, suspicious payments, etc. Look at Paddy Daddy's statements regarding the payments even today. Disgraceful. They are tossing LA to the wolves and obfuscating on the allegations. How can he, closest to the cycling totem pole, say with a straight face that, "At the time, in 2002 and 2005, Armstrong was a big star and there was none of this around him."

At this point, with so many threads, and so many thoughts on the issue...it's hard to keep up with where people stand. This much is true. ;-)

It's a witch hunt pure and simple. How can we trust any of the testimony? It was given to a so-called 'truth and reconciliation' committee where riders get amnesty for 'testimony'. Truth is a very very misleading title for the agency. They should rename to the commission of Lies.

This argument has also been proven false. Dave Z and at least one other rider came forward on their own volition w/o being approached by USADA.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

How about this for an LA out?

He goes to USADA, UCI, Tour, etc, and says he will come clean for the good of the sport only if all involved receive amnesty. All cyclists come clean and all titles are restored. Then he can say, "I came into this sport and could not compete without doping. I had no options. I lied to protect my foundation which is a force for good and should not suffer negative consequences because of my involvement with a corrupt and dirty sport. I come forward today to be a force for a clean sport in the future."

Then his supporters can say, what a great guy LA is! Everyone doped and he had no options. Now he's a bigger hero for stepping up to clean up the sport.

Back to reality - if LA had done this BEFORE he got busted and stripped then maybe he could have come out the other side. I doubt seriously that happens now.

Actually if you're still 'a believer' then this is quite interesting. I see on the ESPN poll that the majority still thinks Lance's TdF titles are "legitimate" - about 60/40 with only Maine swinging slightly to the illegitimate side and the Dakotas giving him highest support. This of course is a different question to "Do you think he doped?". I suspect the majority now believes he doped but many go with the 'level playing field' argument.

But here we have cyclops - one of our very own - who still appears to think everybody else is lying. Cool story, bro.

"For the record, you need to stop saying you're not a lance apologist. You are."

this is exactly the sort of rhetoric that makes it difficult to have these conversations. i can't imagine somebody who struggles through ethical issues in a transparent and honest way than this guy you're calling a lance apologist, yet who is clearly not.

the reason why there are so few actual people who post on these threads is because of this sort of thing. i had a guy, last week, who is a virulent anti-lancer, and who routinely called me in league with the dopers, send me a set of private emails last week. he lives in the same town as moats, and thinks there is another side to moats and that there's nuance there, and that moats is not getting a fair shake on our forum. his answer, when i asked him why the conversation was in the form of PMs instead of just on the forum: "i don't want to view like I'm supporting him in the forum... bc i don't want a misinterpretation."

decoded: he is afraid of the very same behavior used against him, re moats, that he uses on others re armstrong.

if you think dev has a blind spot, because he feels a certain way, then, teach him where his blind spot is, rather than paint him using a tactic that serves to bully people off the board.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

this is a great reasoning however, it excludes any option for the innocent.