Yes, it's pretty typical. But not universal - some people are effectively equivalent. Also, in my opinion, it can be trained. Spend a lot of time in the aero position, and your body adapts.

yep normal

That's my experience as well

Statements like this always set off warning bells for me. You are correct - being on a tri bike does you no good if you aren't able to sustain the aero position. Nobody debates that.

But I can't tell you how many bad, upright positions have hit my fit stand with similar stories. Your statement assumes there is a direct correlation between an aero position and an uncomfortable position, and that is simply not the case. I've put riders who came to upright and uncomfortable in significantly more aero positions and have had them be significantly more comfortable too.

But to your point, in some cases the rider is better off being 1 or 2 cm higher than what might be attainable depending on what type of discomfort he or she might be dealing with. So if you're talking about being a cm or two higher than possible - fine.

But in my experience statements like yours are trying to justify positions that are 5 or 6 cm higher than is necessary. And that mean it's a poor bike fit.

Since I haven't seen your position on the bike, it's impossible for me to know whether you're in a great position or not. So please just take my comments as generic observations and not a criticism of your position.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

It's normal, but not required. You use your muscles slightly differently in aero position. Train in aero position more than sitting up and you *should* eventually become more powerful in aero. It happened to me after spending a few months living in aero and only coming up if I absolutely had to. It can eventually become your preferred position. I big helper is CeeGees armrest pads.

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Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

how much time would one safe on the bike leg with a position differences of 1-2 cm vs 5 or 6cm? I did my first ironman last year and once I started getting over having comfort issues on the bike. My original fitter was not exactly great. I went to a different fitter and he adjusted a few things, saddle height, cleats, and aero bars. They were all small adjustments but worked wonders for me. For me, a MOP, I want to be aero but comfort is pretty important as shaving off a couple minutes in a less comfortable more aggressive position is not worth it to me

Me, too. As long as I spend an hour and a half each week on the TT bike, my power on each bike is within a few watts. Sometimes it's high on the TT bike.

Again, being aero is beong conflated with being uncomfortable. As plainly as I can state it:

Your position is not aerodynamic if you cannot sustain it.

Sustainability is key, and no matter how fast you might be in the aero position, if you can hold that position then it's all navel gazing. But sustainability should almost never justify riding in an unorthodox position, because the orthodox position will be better in all respects in the long run.

Don't misunderstand me - a good fitter isn't able to magically produce an aero position that is immediately as comfortable as sitting in a recliner. And riders do have a responsibility to work towards and adapt to an orthodox, aero position. You have to consider and work on posture. You have to adapt. And the degree of adaptation required can be different from person-to-person.

But a good fitter can get you much of the way there. As you point out, small adjustments can work wonders.

In regards to how much time is saved, it's impossible to answer. But if any time is saved and the positions are equally sustainable, you'd be foolish not to prefer the faster position. The entire reason you bought the tri bike was to go faster...so go faster!

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Thanks, this is very helpful. I've always thought of staying aero on the trainer as training my other muscles (back, neck, etc.) to be comfortable in the position. I haven't really considered it in terms of my legs and for the purposes of generating power. I'll use it as additional motivation when I'm feeling tempted to ride upright.

I would argue, somewhat harshly, that you were *not* professionally fit. A professional fitter can easily put you in a position that is comfortable, powerful, AND aerodynamic. So there's that. Furthermore, a professional fitter should have the knowledge and skill and dexterity with language to instruct or educate you the client on the whys and hows of the new position so that you the client *understands* the fit, understands how to hold the new posture, and understands what the intent of the fit is.

My $.02

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I was unclear in my original post. I'm aware that you can be comfortable, aero, and still generate power. You do not choose one over the other(s). The whole reason we buy tribikes and seek out professional fitters is because we want all three. I don't think my fitter failed to explain that reality or that I failed to understand it. And I've had no issues holding my position during races and have been satisfied with my speed and power, so I feel confident in the fit.

That being said, on the trainer I notice a slight loss of power. If I were on the road or without a power meter, I doubt I'd even notice, so we are obviously talking about something small. But like many on ST I want every watt I can get, so I found myself wondering if I should tweak the fit or if a slight loss of power is just the price we pay for being more aero. What I've learned is that practicing in aero position can help, so that's what I intend to do.

And while I do not dispute that we can get power, aero, and comfort, I do think in some cases there are slight trade-offs. For at least some riders, there is no single position that puts each at its absolute maximum value. For example, I had a fitting when I first transitioned to a tribike from a road bike. I was unused to the head position and felt like I couldn't see what was coming at me. At one point, I asked my fitter to bring me up slightly because I felt like my field of vision was too constricted and everything was coming at me too fast. I'm assuming I gave up a bit of aero, but it was worth it to feel more comfortable going fast.

Let me agree and amplify everything Trent said, and add that over a pretty broad range, an additional 5-6cm of drop would be in the .5 - 1.0 mph range of improvement. A LOT!

To the original poster, it is completely normal to lose power in the aero position, and also almost always avoidable. A proper fit, including addressing crank length, combined with sufficient time in aero should do the trick.

It's not unusual to have a lower power output in aero, especially when you are adapting to a new position. You can train it up, but your training plan should be based on an accurate FTP baseline for that position. What position were you in when you set the baseline you are currently using?

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Normal yep and the % difference goes down the more and more time I spend in aero (closer to race). Usually starts at 10% for me and goes down to 5%

Fitters are like dentists. Always unimpressed with the work of their peers. :)

I've been playing around with position lately. Instead of 18cm drop and lots of reach, I went to 8cm drop and short reach. In the first case my shoulders are pulled forward, down and in by the reach. In the second I scrunch and shrug. The lower torso is in the same position in both cases, the upper torso is higher in the second, but my peak height (middle of the back) is the same. With 18cm drop my upper torso was angled down, while with 8cm it's pretty level. From field testing, aero drag is about the same.

Just saying... drop doesn't dictate much. But it is usually a good idea to make your torso pretty level and keep your head down.

^^^ This. So true and almost comical to see each one of the "experts" here selling their services. It is NOT an absolute, much like medicine. How many times we've seen these witch doctors (;-)) telling people how bad they look and how much they can improve you. Money talks....

Not buying your opinion. Most of what I can recall around here is a bunch of highly experienced professional fitters (Dan, Trent, Eric, Jim, etc.) giving completely free advice where possible (ie based on available photos or videos). And rarely disagreeing with each other, to any significant degree.

Splitting hairs. Not all can be told in a photo, so to make pronouncements based on no knowledge of possible physical limitations of the rider or other considerations is at best a wild guess. You are quite correct that there are some great fitters here, and some that aren't and profess to be. My point was more to the arrogance of some. Usually the best are confident enough to not express that beligerance and the pretenders are all about cutting down others.

Are you using the same power meter on the road versus on the trainer?

Perhaps not your issue, but for me one of toughest things being in aero on a trainer is heat. Sitting up the fans hitting my torso keeps me cooler and my wattage will be easier to sustain while in a threshold level intensity. In aero that heat seems to build as I believe it gets trapped and it becomes more challenging to hold the wattage. To add to this my general sustained power in the winter months is actually my best yielding indoor training sessions. Training is aero is better for me in the winter.

I am a roadie that owns and mostly rides a tri bike so when I started using an aero position indoors it took a while, but the more I stuck with it despite the heat issue my power started to balance out. It took a good six months of just hanging in there before I noticed that my power in aero was actually started to get better than sitting up. My sustained power in aero is now slightly better than sitting up.

May not be your issue at all , but that was my issue in a small wattage difference.