Been there too. I my case its IM 2 me 1. But I think I have some solutions at least for me. There are a couple of really good articles on www.bryn.org in his tips section actually makes a lot of sense on nutrition and pacing.

I have been training on 500 cals an hr washed down with a fair amount of water (fuel is also liquid) and that seems to work at least for now. I also make sure I take salt tablets or put salt into my fuel. Maybe, if you have not done it already, try to figure out how many calories you can consume and how much water you need to a) digest and b) hydrate. Based on what you written sounds like you consume about 300 cals from bar and gel plus Gatorade (say 24 ounce bottle every hr = 120 cals or so) that makes 320 cals. Do you take addtional water to chase the gels and bars down? If not maybe you have a hydration problem and not a fueling problem.

The test is to weigh yourself before and after long rides using various fueling and hydration plans to see how much water you actually lose and not replenish. At IM NZ I lost 7lbs from the day before race to end of race! I did not drink enough to digest my fuel and went into a downwards spiral, was saved eating 15 cookies at the first three aid stations on the run, and drinking anything they had. It was a long walk/run.

Also try http://www.cruciblefitness.com/etips/IMNutrition.pdf

Hope this helps.

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Simple Simon
Where's the Fried Chicken??

Sounds to me like you might be having too high concentration of carbs.

When you get above 6-8% concentration, you're talking hypertonic. This means that the body will absorb drink more slowly than water, and you will end up dehydrated, and queasy.

Not sure what about concentration of brands you are using (I'm in UK), but sounds like you might need water to bring concentration back o 6-8% isotonic range. Fine to take higher concentration to replenish afterwards, but not during.

From Sports Coach
[url]http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/drinks.htm[/url]
Sports Drinks

There are three types of Sports drink all of which contain various levels of fluid, electrolytes and carbohydrate.

Type Content
Isotonic Fluid, electrolytes and 6-8% carbohydrate
Hypotonic Fluids, electrolytes and a low level of carbohydrate
Hypertonic High level of carbohydrate

The osmolality of a fluid is a measure of the number of particles in a solution. In a drink these particles will comprise of carbohydrate, electrolytes, sweeteners and preservatives. In blood plasma the particles will comprise of sodium, proteins and glucose. Blood has an osmolality of 280-330mOsm/kg. Drinks with an osmolality of 270-330mOsm/kg are said to be in balance with the body's fluid and are called Isotonic. Hypotonic fluids have fewer particles than blood and Hypertonic have more particles than blood.

Consuming fluids with a low osmolality, e.g. water, results in a fall in the blood plasma osmolality and reduces the drive to drink well before sufficient fluid has been consumed to replace losses.

Which is most suitable?

Isotonic - quickly replaces fluids lost by sweating and supplies a boost of carbohydrate. This drink is the choice for most athletes - middle and long distance running or team sports. Glucose is the body's preferred source of energy therefore it may be appropriate to consume Isotonic drinks where the carbohydrate source is glucose in a concentration of 6% to 8% - e.g. High Five, SiS Go, Boots Isotonic, Lucozade Sport.

Hypotonic - quickly replaces fluids lost by sweating . Suitable for athletes who need fluid without the boost of carbohydrate - jockeys and gymnasts.

Hypertonic - used to supplement daily carbohydrate intake normally after exercise to top up muscle glycogen stores. In ultra distance events high levels of energy are required and Hypertonic drinks can be taken during exercise to meet the energy requirements

[b]If used during exercise Hypertonic drinks need to be used in conjunction with Isotonic drinks to replace fluids.[/b]


Want to make your own?
Isotonic - 200ml of orange squash (concentrated orange), 1 litre of water and a pinch of salt (1g). Mix all the ingredients together and keep chilled

Hypotonic - 100ml of orange squash (concentrated orange), 1 litre of water and a pinch of salt (1g). Mix all the ingredients together and keep chilled.

Hypertonic - 400ml of orange squash (concentrated orange), 1 litre of water and a pinch of salt (1g). Mix all the ingredients together and keep chilled.

The Gatorade plus the cliff shot could very well be causing you some GI upset. For most of us its one or the other. There was a thread about week ago that debated the simple sugar vs the complex carb approach which included discussion about osmolarity gastric emptying. Worth the search and the read.

We have a similar history. What seems to be working has been a move to all liquid calories. I had pretty good success with Accelerade in a 1/2 last fall. Recently I went with Sustained Energy plus Enduralytes. No simple sugars. Taste was not the best but I'll mix with hammergel the next time out to cut the pasty taste. There's a ton of info on the website and between the SE, Lytes, and Hammergel you can mix according to needs, very versatile. They claim you'll have less GI upset with their product and it can be mixed at higher concentrations without ill effect. Something to consider given your history. FWIW it did seem very easy on the stomach on an above race pace 4+hr brick.

If you are committed to the g-ade, gu. I would chase the gu with plenty of water. Second when the GI stuff starts, its not going away based on history, you'll have to slow down and get the GI track back in working order, otherwise you know what's coming. SLowing down is hard but you know it works based on your training rides/bricks. Better to slow on the bike then the death march on the run!

I've got a 1/2 in three weeks where I'll put the hammergel products to the test. Then its LP for me as well. Hope we get it figured out.

Tip for the Sustained Energy: Sprinkle in a little bit of Crystal Light (non-sugar) lemonade. Tasty and you get a different taste from the Hammergels.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

This may sound simple, but why not take a 5 minute stand-down off the bike at mile 75, 80 or 90 and stretch, eat, pee, regroup. Your five minutes of time could save you 45mins or more on the run??? In the grand scale of things, 5 minutes is less than 1% of you overall time.

Just a thought...

Weeman

Thanks Cathy, that should work.

I saw your post on another thread re your IM woes. I thought, might be electrolytes? Any progress on the fix?

I'll be working on the nutrition thing this summer. One of my informal advisors thinks it might be too many carbos too early. One issue is that I can't stand almost all drinks or gels (or really, most anything sweet in general). And I've tried SE mixed only with water and that was even worse--very milk-like and I hate milk. I'm close to trying water and solid food only, which is what my best century rides have been.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

From my own personal experience I have to side with those who recommend you dilute your elctrolyte drinks. During a race I can barely tolerate anything over 50% dilution (1/2 water, 1/2 go juice or whatever you use). I guess the theory goes that you can always pass the water you don't need (not likely to happen during an IM anyway) but extra carbs tend to stay in your gut and make you sick, especially since most of your metabolism is devoted to keeping you moving forward.

Try Carbo-Pro. It is pure maltodextrin (glucose polymers) and has virtually no taste. I swear by it.

There was a rather heated but informative thread a while back titled Does anyone use Gatorade, or something like that. I have switched my nutrition plan to using only Carbo Pro (maledextrin) on the bike since I have had some of the same problems. I will let you know after Lake Placid if it works.

Yup. I was right in the middle of that one. I just did an 80 mile ride this morning with two large water bottles each with 500cals of Carbo Pro. We hammered and one of my buddies had to beg my emergency Powerbar off me because he was bonking on 3 bottles of Accelerade. I had energy to spare. I think he will be another convert. The beauty of the Carbo Pro is you can get a ton of calories and it tastes like plain water with only a touch of sweetness. I love that stuff. See you in Placid Art.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions. Slick, what is your routine in using the Carbo Pro? Some of the posts suggest that part of my problem may be ingesting too many carbs, either too quickly or in too high a concentration. Is this a possible problem with Carbo Pro? Also, does Carbo Pro have a website, or does anyone know who carries it in the Tampa Bay area?

Doug

I am going to side with the anti-gel crowd. Same thing that happened to you happened to me at IM-LP. In training, I went with cliff bars, turkey sandwiches and gatorade. Worked very well. Race day, I lost a sandwich and a half on one of the descents. I tried using some gels. BIG time upset stomach right around mile 80, which never resolved. i never puked or anything, but I felt like hell and walked probably 20 miles of the run.

philbert

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Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!

You could mix 1000cals in one bottle and sip every 20 minutes or so. Pick up a second 1000cal bottle at special needs. If you ride between 5 and 6 hours you won't be able to absorb any more calories than that. Drink water from aid stations as appropriate for the conditions. Always chase the fuel with some water. I'm thinking of putting all the fuel for the whole ride in a Camelbak Siren (2000cals in 50oz). I'm going to try it out on an upcoming ride.

I used Carbo-pro for the first time on a long ride and it worked like a charm as far as not bonking. However, there was one drawback...it gave me gas which I am scared will lead to G.I. problems during the run of an IM. I'll try it again because I hate to waste anything.

A couple of things to suggest:

1. You mentioned stopping during training rides to eat/drink. That's fine for early season base building rides, but the long rides in the final IM prep should be as non-stop as possible. Same with long runs - try to keep moving for 2 1/2 to 3 hours with minimal stops.

2. Perhaps your body is trying to tell you something when it keeps fading late in longer races - maybe this is not your specialty. I recall training partners from a few years ago. Strong really fit triathlete. Sub 2:00 for Olympic distance. Kept going back year after years to IMC with big plans, but kept falling apart big time late in the run. He finally cames to the conclusion, that races this long were NOT for him. There IS no shame in this. Many top short course racers have been humbled BIG TIME at IMH and other IM races.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Doug,

I think IM nutrition is the BIG key to doing that distance. I have mine fairly well dialed in after 12 IMs, and it sounds like my goals are similar to yours.

I think you have to go back to the drawing board and think backwards. I.E. How many calories to you need on the bike, then what form. I plan on about 2000 cals on the bike, then I have a game plan to get them in. I practice this nutrition game plan, including timing on every long workout so my body is "trained" to process my game plan. Make sense? Then, The IM bike is just like a long traing ride. And after training rides I have to mow the lawn, take care of kids, etc; so, the IM run, psychologically is a bit of a vacation and I get through it.

Send me your e-mail and be glad to share my "game plan" with you.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

I would have thought that initally the answer is to stop and eat as you do in training. If it works in training.... Then you work on reducing your stop times until you are doing it all on the move. While initially you will loose a bit of time stopping, it won't be as bad as walking during the run