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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [mathematics] [ In reply to ]
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mathematics wrote:
Thinking more about this and aero hydration solutions.

A massively tall double bottle holder behind the arms, effectively pressed against your chest, one bottle below each pectoral.

Would it still be effective without the fabric covering it? Maybe. Will it be much more dangerous and unwieldy than a bottle down the kit? Yes. Is it legal under these rules? Also yes


That sounds like the Pieter Heemeryck T100 back setup but at the front
Last edited by: kaze: Mar 12, 24 9:30
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [mathematics] [ In reply to ]
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mathematics wrote:
Intent or effect is the first issue. Is it the intent of the rider to reduce resistance when tapering off bar tape? Or just making it look neat? Can a computer be taped on or does it need to use an actual mount?

(...)

This rule reads like it was written by a new college grad trying to impress his boss. Fancy words that sound cool but obfuscate the actual meaning. Purple prose

Ditto, and note that it's banned if the intent or effect is to improve aerodynamics. Reading the rule literally, even if you're just trying to get more fuel on the bike, you're basically not allowed to do it in a way that improves aerodynamics!

I have the run-of-the-mill Elite Crono bottle on the downtube, which almost certainly makes the bike more aero than if the downtube were bare. Whether or not users of said bottle will be DQed will be at the discretion of the officials. Of course they won't penalize anyone, until an underpaid idiot does.

We're back to writing non-existent double yellow lines into rules and such silliness...

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [Grantbot21] [ In reply to ]
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Grantbot21 wrote:
Iā€™m still trying to figure out how a bike frame is legal now. Based on the second set of rules you donā€™t get a bike because most carbon frames are multiple molds that end up blending together as they put the frame together.

What yahoo wrote this?

Wonder if some headhunter poaching them from UCI ;-)
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [kajet] [ In reply to ]
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kajet wrote:
mathematics wrote:
Intent or effect is the first issue. Is it the intent of the rider to reduce resistance when tapering off bar tape? Or just making it look neat? Can a computer be taped on or does it need to use an actual mount?

(...)

This rule reads like it was written by a new college grad trying to impress his boss. Fancy words that sound cool but obfuscate the actual meaning. Purple prose

Ditto, and note that it's banned if the intent or effect is to improve aerodynamics. Reading the rule literally, even if you're just trying to get more fuel on the bike, you're basically not allowed to do it in a way that improves aerodynamics!

I have the run-of-the-mill Elite Crono bottle on the downtube, which almost certainly makes the bike more aero than if the downtube were bare. Whether or not users of said bottle will be DQed will be at the discretion of the officials. Of course they won't penalize anyone, until an underpaid idiot does.

We're back to writing non-existent double yellow lines into rules and such silliness...

Exactly. They could have simplified and stick with the classic "non functional fairings are prohibited". If you choose functional over structural as the adjective you allow bottles, computers, bento boxes, flat kits, all the typical things people carry on their bikes. Sure they may be shaped in funny ways, but that's allowed in the as-written rule too. There's no need to go into such granularity.
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [mathematics] [ In reply to ]
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I think that is part of the ā€œproblemā€ they are trying to fix. Everything can become a functional fairing now with 3d printing. What bento box shape do you want and I can print it in a few hours.

This reeks of executive leadership at its finest. ā€œJust give me a couple sentences that covers everythingā€ uhhh itā€™s not that simple, ā€œyeah whatever your just overstating the complexity go figure it outā€ ummm okay Iā€™ll just use a bunch of big words that will make my boss happy.
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [mathematics] [ In reply to ]
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mathematics wrote:
Gonna be really tough to draw clear lines on this mess of a rule.

Quote:
Section 5.03
(b) Protective screens, fuselages, fairings, or any other devices or materials (including duct tape) added or blended into the structure with the intent to reduce (or having the effect of reducing) resistance to air penetration are prohibited. Aerodynamic assemblies and protuberances on the head tube or elsewhere are prohibited; [\quote]

Intent or effect is the first issue. Is it the intent of the rider to reduce resistance when tapering off bar tape? Or just making it look neat? Can a computer be taped on or does it need to use an actual mount?

It also only says "resistance to air penetration". Presumably all sort of funky tail pieces are legal then. They do nothing to "reduce resistance to air penetration", only help reattach the flow after it has been penetrated.

This rule reads like it was written by a new college grad trying to impress his boss. Fancy words that sound cool but obfuscate the actual meaning. Purple prose

especially since you have to actually draw a line as to whether it reduces or just doesn't increase "air penetration", given there is no baseline established (unless you go with intent which is even messier). suddenly everyone will be claiming their products as aero-neutral hydration instead of a reduction.

i like what i think their intention is - getting rid of random additions with no purpose other than drag reduction - but this has to be a contender for worst rule ever written!
Last edited by: pk1: Mar 12, 24 15:28
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [kaze] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn't fret...I understand there will be new aero rule consultants in the pebble gardens at an Equinox near you
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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Bryancd wrote:

If I want to wear a tinfoil hat I would think the new rule was advocated for by companies like Profile Design. No cost hydration solutions directly impact them financially..

Definitely not. The rule is as surprising to PD as anyone else.

It looks like someone went to the UCI Academy for vague and unintended consequence rule writing then was eager to apply their new knowledge.

The wording calls into question many elements on a tri bike.

Also - hydration not as profitable as you might expect. Fairly low msrp per unit but blow mould tooling costs as much as bike frames so the up front costs are really high. PD can only justify making bottles because of their wide distribution network (including OE partnerships).
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Probably going to be waiting a while for that one. Likely not till after Oceanside.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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rrheisler wrote:
Probably going to be waiting a while for that one. Likely not till after Oceanside.

The most interesting part of the race at Oceanside may be bike check-in.
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [mathematics] [ In reply to ]
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Kinda my point -- need to see what is / isn't under permissible in action, and there's not going to be much of an enforcement arm on this until we get to the first Pro Series stop of the year.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [kaze] [ In reply to ]
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Additional clarity required - what constitutes ā€œadditional equipmentā€? Do some helmets lower cda below that of a bare head? Sounds like those would be banned. Skinsuits? Same. The note calling out items under the athletes clothing clearly indicates the ruling is not only applicable to items on the frame.

Furthermore, whoā€™s the judge on whether an item has the effect of reducing wind resistance? Can I have professional aero testing done and ask for a certification from the tester noting that the item tested does not reduce wind resistance? Thereā€™s no way ironman goes for that but then every item under scrutiny is left up to the judge to eye the effect on cda. I think most everyone knows how unreliable that is for the small details.
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [mathematics] [ In reply to ]
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mathematics wrote:
The most interesting part of the race at Oceanside may be bike check-in.

Or the DQ's of those checked-in bikes, afterward. Bummer start to a new CEO's tenure, being responsible for all things IM.
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
Grantbot21 wrote:


We have 50 now. None of them I would trust with structural parts. One that I would trust costs like 20 of ours and you still need to understand materials engineering or something will break.


Agreed. I have had many home made parts fly off my bike. All during training/testing rides. There is a stretch of road about 5km long, there must be a half dozen aero sensors in the ditch somewhere since I print my own Garmin/Gopro mounts :-)

IM could make this simple. Allow accessories from an approved manufacturer list. Then work with that manufacturer. Profile Design, on the list. QR on the list....Those companies won't muck with the rules. Make it simple for the athlete. I bought everything from QT, I am good to go.

This is a difficult rule. What about the bento box and bottle cage holder on example the Ku, that is aero fairing incl. ā€˜spoilerā€™ that dual acts as a bento. The classics HC bta bottle from profile design with the torpedo ā€˜aeroā€™ profile lid, etc. The new Canyon behind the saddle bottle mount is just putting the bottle up higher, but still ā€˜justā€™ bottle mount.

This going to be very difficult to control.

Jeroen

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [TRIPRO] [ In reply to ]
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I still ride, and occasionally race, a Specialized Transition Pro. I have the triangular, good for nothing but making the bike more aero, water bottle that goes in the frame. Is that now illegal?

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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Is that due to not being able to sit down with Jimmy/IM prior to Oceanside? Or just wanting to see how Oceanside plays out first?

blog
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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It's mostly column B -- I think we're making a mountain out of a mole hill here. It's a set of rules that, on the surface, appear to be written to outlaw Skipper's set-up and jersey stuffing. I find it hard to believe they are going to suddenly DQ half of the age group field.

But, we won't know until they actually start enforcing the rules. Nobody thought the zipper thing was a big deal 8 or so years ago until pros suddenly had to safety pin their kits together if the zipper broke (looking at you, Jessie Thomas) and guys suddenly had sports bras made to get around the torso coverage limits.

That and I think Jimmy's pretty darn busy with RaceRanger and checking everybody's running shoes. ;)

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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Something needed to be done about Joe Skippers setup. Personally think that the sport of triathlon should be focused on being better athletes. Not on fiddling the bike setup to get the lowest cda. Certainly I am guilty, but I'd be happy to ride a road bike as long as everyone else is doing the same.
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [garageman] [ In reply to ]
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Personally, I wasn't impressed with his DNF.

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [garageman] [ In reply to ]
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garageman wrote:
Something needed to be done about Joe Skippers setup.

Personally, I wasn't impressed with his IMTX DNF.

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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rrheisler wrote:
It's mostly column B -- I think we're making a mountain out of a mole hill here. It's a set of rules that, on the surface, appear to be written to outlaw Skipper's set-up and jersey stuffing. I find it hard to believe they are going to suddenly DQ half of the age group field.

But, we won't know until they actually start enforcing the rules. Nobody thought the zipper thing was a big deal 8 or so years ago until pros suddenly had to safety pin their kits together if the zipper broke (looking at you, Jessie Thomas) and guys suddenly had sports bras made to get around the torso coverage limits.

That and I think Jimmy's pretty darn busy with RaceRanger and checking everybody's running shoes. ;)


you're probably right that none of the stuff considered normal a year or so back is going to be an issue, just the recent more extreme skipper like innovations.
however thats not to say we're making a big deal about nothing - a rule that means virtually every athlete turning up to an IM race could be DSQed is not a molehill. we want to be confident about what we can and cannot do so that when we spend time and money prepping for that race we aren't losing sleep about the possibility of an overly officious official

i would guess that most anything commercially available in reasonable quantities, used as intended, is probably ok (or will be explicitly called out if not) but some custom stuff eg the huge mono-extension things and non-standard use of things will be up for examination
Last edited by: pk1: Mar 12, 24 17:51
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with you that this probably mostly nothing. Thatā€™s why I wrote my original post that Iā€™m withholding judgement.

But wouldnā€™t it be nice to be proactive and get specific clarification especially for people who are spending a lot of money on front ends like drag2zero, aero coach, print4watts, etc which while very unlikely could be interpreted to be illegal with the new rules?

I think IM just needs to come out and say this is the intent of the new rules and hereā€™s what we are trying to prevent.

blog
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Not replying to you or anyone else, but I do like that Ironman is somewhat trying to slow down the technology a bit. I believe that is one of the reasons UCI has its rules, to make cycling more affordable and equal for all

Aerocoach for one offers custom 3d printed bars for 3k USD and these things do help. Not long ago clip on bars were 100 USD. I'm all for techology improvements, but the cost of the sports especially at high performance is too high right now.

How to balance these two factors: Allow some innovation while maintaing a reasonable cost for everyone looking at high performance?

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Vinnie Santana, Multisport Coach
http://www.ironguides.net
* * * Your best is our business. * * *
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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [kaze] [ In reply to ]
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Good news. The rule is written too broadly and they need to provide much more clarification but I'm sure the intent is to get rid of all the newer ridiculous DIY type aero add ons. I'll be happy if I don't have to strategically strap 10 bottles all over my body and bike to be on a level playing field.

Coach of TriForce Triathlon Team

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Re: Ironman Competition Rules 2024 - no more aero gains? [vinnie] [ In reply to ]
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vinnie wrote:
Not replying to you or anyone else, but I do like that Ironman is somewhat trying to slow down the technology a bit. I believe that is one of the reasons UCI has its rules, to make cycling more affordable and equal for all

Aerocoach for one offers custom 3d printed bars for 3k USD and these things do help. Not long ago clip on bars were 100 USD. I'm all for techology improvements, but the cost of the sports especially at high performance is too high right now.

How to balance these two factors: Allow some innovation while maintaing a reasonable cost for everyone looking at high performance?
But they're actually doing the exact opposite of what you're saying here. The $3,000 aerobars are still legal. Trying to copy the design with $5 worth of duct tape now isn't. This is actually widening the gap of what is affordable and accessible. Same thing for bottles down the kit. For a short time there was a nearly free method of potentially gaining some aero benefit. Now you'll have some company marketing a huge bento box that is technically within the rules that fills that space under the chest.

Rules like this both stifle creativity and make certain technological gains more exclusive.

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
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