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Ironman, max run volume
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Hi all,

I'm doing my first IM next year, cabo, in march. I normally do short courses and a 70.3 a year. My 70.3 time is around 5 hours + teens. Time is limited with family and work, but I've been training about 7-10 hours a week for the 70.3s.. My peak weekly run volume during my previous training has been 35 miles with my long run about 10 miles.

So for the IM, I'm hoping to do under 12 hours .. maybe aiming too high lol. I'm upping my training to 15 hours a week.. My weekly run is now 43 miles with my long run at 13.1mi. I'm following barryp running plan.. What should my peak run volume be in order to be well prepared for an IM? I was thinking 55mi with long run around 17mi? Or is that too low?
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [125mph] [ In reply to ]
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I think 55 is too high. I'd cut that down and spend more time on the bike if you want to optimize your training for the fastest finish time. For an Ironman, with 10-15hrs avaible per week to train, the emphasis needs to be heavily on your bike endurance and speed. That's what will allow you to go run a marathon at an easy pace without a struggle. High run volume is not going to do you any good if you don't have that bike fitness. Training for an IM marathon is very different than an open marathon.

I'm 3 weeks out from Cozumel and shooting for a 9:30-10:00 finish time. My peak run volume has been ~40 miles with my longest run being a 20 miler yesterday. I plan on running the marathon at an easy pace, which won't be a problem on such relatively low run volume.



-Andrew
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [125mph] [ In reply to ]
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To follow up, as a N=1 data point, my training volume over the past 6 months breaks down as follows:

Swim: 19%
Bike: 52%
Run: 29%

I had a run injury in July/August which drops the run % some since I didn't run for 4 weeks, but it still illustrates that the emphasis is heavily on the bike.



-Andrew
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [AMT04] [ In reply to ]
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Wow okay.. so more bike and less run?... Right now I do about 5-6 hours a week on the bike.. is that too little?
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [125mph] [ In reply to ]
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125mph wrote:
Right now I do about 5-6 hours a week on the bike.. is that too little?

Yes.

Eliot
blog thing - strava thing
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [125mph] [ In reply to ]
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Longest week about 35 miles. Many run too much. Consider you are probably biking and swimming three days a week. If you run three days that is nine workouts in a week.

Jim

Jim Lukanich
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [renorider] [ In reply to ]
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Gotcha! You guys saved my IM!

I just searched the web and got similar opinions as well :)

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/...ronman-marathon.aspx

Get as strong as you can on the bike
The inaugural Ironman Wisconsin, held in 2002, featured a novelty. A couple of elite Kenyan runners did the race. Iím talking about sub-2:15 marathoners. The story was that some coach had recruited these guys as a sort of experiment. Anyway, not only did the poor guinea pigs get crushed on the swim and the bike, but they also ran terribly. This unique example demonstrates that the first key to running strong in an Ironman is not pure running ability but strength on the bike.
It makes sense, right? Your bike fitness has to be at such a level that you can ride hard for 112 miles and still have something left for the marathon. All of the running fitness in the world wonít help you otherwise. How do you get that strong on the bike? The short answer is by putting in a ton of volume. But most of us donít have enough time to put in the optimal amount of bike miles. So then, what is the least you can do to build enough bike fitness so that 112 miles is no big deal?
Last edited by: 125mph: Nov 11, 13 9:28
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [125mph] [ In reply to ]
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125mph wrote:
Gotcha! You guys saved my IM!

I just searched the web and got similar opinions as well :)

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/...ronman-marathon.aspx

Get as strong as you can on the bike
The inaugural Ironman Wisconsin, held in 2002, featured a novelty. A couple of elite Kenyan runners did the race. Iím talking about sub-2:15 marathoners. The story was that some coach had recruited these guys as a sort of experiment. Anyway, not only did the poor guinea pigs get crushed on the swim and the bike, but they also ran terribly. This unique example demonstrates that the first key to running strong in an Ironman is not pure running ability but strength on the bike.
It makes sense, right? Your bike fitness has to be at such a level that you can ride hard for 112 miles and still have something left for the marathon. All of the running fitness in the world wonít help you otherwise. How do you get that strong on the bike? The short answer is by putting in a ton of volume. But most of us donít have enough time to put in the optimal amount of bike miles. So then, what is the least you can do to build enough bike fitness so that 112 miles is no big deal?

That's about right. Bottom line, for me, is that if I fail to reach my goals in an IM it'll be for one of 3 reasons: not enough bike fitness, riding too hard for my bike fitness, or not fueling well enough. If I run a 3:45 marathon, I won't be thinking that I should have done more running.

The % breakdown of your training hours will vary a bit based on your background and skill in the 3 sports. You may also find that you just enjoy running too much to cut back, which is perfectly understandable, even if it's not ideal.



-Andrew
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [125mph] [ In reply to ]
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your run is already where it needs to be. Keep the volume the same and gradually and carefully up the intensity to a level that causes good physiological adaptations but is recoverable.

use your time to bike more. way more. way more often. way more often more harder.

125mph wrote:
Hi all,

I'm doing my first IM next year, cabo, in march. I normally do short courses and a 70.3 a year. My 70.3 time is around 5 hours + teens. Time is limited with family and work, but I've been training about 7-10 hours a week for the 70.3s.. My peak weekly run volume during my previous training has been 35 miles with my long run about 10 miles.

So for the IM, I'm hoping to do under 12 hours .. maybe aiming too high lol. I'm upping my training to 15 hours a week.. My weekly run is now 43 miles with my long run at 13.1mi. I'm following barryp running plan.. What should my peak run volume be in order to be well prepared for an IM? I was thinking 55mi with long run around 17mi? Or is that too low?

Eric Reid
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [125mph] [ In reply to ]
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35-40 mpw is plenty of run volume, but get that long run up to 17 miles. But even that is possibly a bit much for a sub-12 goal. It's basically what I did (with a ton of biking) to go sub-10. It's all about the bike.


-Bryan Journey
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [125mph] [ In reply to ]
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From what I've read and the training I'd done, I think a good rule is to ride twice as many house as you run, and to swim 50-100% of the amount of time you run, depending on your swim fitness.

Having said that, take a look at the ultra long run section of my plan. If you run 30-40 miles a week, that only gives you a 10-13 miles long run, which I don't think is enough. In the 4-5 months leading up to the race, extend your long run farther twice a month, and then use the following days to recover by paying the miles back in rest. i.e. if your notmal long run is 13 miles, but you do a 16 miler instead, then you'll run 3 miles fewer the next day than you'd normally do.

Ultra long run should get up to about 2:30 - 3:00.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [125mph] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome


125mph wrote:
Gotcha! You guys saved my IM!

I just searched the web and got similar opinions as well :)

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/...ronman-marathon.aspx

Get as strong as you can on the bike
The inaugural Ironman Wisconsin, held in 2002, featured a novelty. A couple of elite Kenyan runners did the race. Iím talking about sub-2:15 marathoners. The story was that some coach had recruited these guys as a sort of experiment. Anyway, not only did the poor guinea pigs get crushed on the swim and the bike, but they also ran terribly. This unique example demonstrates that the first key to running strong in an Ironman is not pure running ability but strength on the bike.
It makes sense, right? Your bike fitness has to be at such a level that you can ride hard for 112 miles and still have something left for the marathon. All of the running fitness in the world wonít help you otherwise. How do you get that strong on the bike? The short answer is by putting in a ton of volume. But most of us donít have enough time to put in the optimal amount of bike miles. So then, what is the least you can do to build enough bike fitness so that 112 miles is no big deal?

*************************************
Triathlete - Coach - Loyal Friend :-)
Outstrip Endurance Coaching / Twitter

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Re: Ironman, max run volume [125mph] [ In reply to ]
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Agree on what others are saying. Cabo is also a pretty tough bike course and a pretty easy run course (very mild "rollers" that some would consider to be pretty flat). Run course is hot though. At least in 2013 this was true -- I know that 2014 has a slightly altered bike course.
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [Paulduncanjr] [ In reply to ]
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here is my IMWI 2013 training plan FWIW.

do the math, i barely swam and barely ran (in fact, i barely biked) compared to most people.

i finished 11:49:xx. it was my 2nd IM. most of the hour PR came from experience and fueling properly on the bike.

if i were to change a few things:

1) swim more (1x per week for 1 mile)
2) longer rides (longest ride outdoors was 72 miles)
3) more bricks (i'm doing cozumel in 3 weeks and my run off the bike has improved by 15 seconds simply by doing more bricks)



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Re: Ironman, max run volume [Whiny Will] [ In reply to ]
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http://triathlon.competitor.com/...over-triathlon_43016

I think this experiment needs to be rerun, we have greater knowledge of training now, and a larger sample size would help. Athlinks only shows 1 triathlon result. Im sure if these guys were properly taught and did shorter races leading to the ironman they would dominate.

also now that sponsors pay more in triathlon, maybe more motivation.


http://www.coupleofathletes.com
Last edited by: synthetic: Nov 11, 13 20:38
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [jlukanich] [ In reply to ]
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You really think the problem for most triathletes and people on this board is that they run too much? Bwaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh.
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [renorider] [ In reply to ]
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Ditto, especially for Cabo. If it were IM Florida, all you need is to be able to pedal and follow....closely.

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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denali2001 wrote:
You really think the problem for most triathletes and people on this board is that they run too much? Bwaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh.

heh definitely most iron distances become walkathons. Sure some people can get away with low volume training, but for the majority of the population, no


http://www.coupleofathletes.com
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [AMT04] [ In reply to ]
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AMT04 wrote:
I think 55 is too high. I'd cut that down and spend more time on the bike if you want to optimize your training for the fastest finish time. For an Ironman, with 10-15hrs avaible per week to train, the emphasis needs to be heavily on your bike endurance and speed. That's what will allow you to go run a marathon at an easy pace without a struggle. High run volume is not going to do you any good if you don't have that bike fitness. Training for an IM marathon is very different than an open marathon.

I'm 3 weeks out from Cozumel and shooting for a 9:30-10:00 finish time. My peak run volume has been ~40 miles with my longest run being a 20 miler yesterday. I plan on running the marathon at an easy pace, which won't be a problem on such relatively low run volume.

Can you expand on that a little more? I've typically rode very little and just ran and swam. I now have a coach and she has me riding lots and not running much. My bike has improved significantly, my running has dropped off though, understandably considering my run volume has almost halved, so I'm struggling to get my head around me running well in a race. Note my runs in 70.3s have generally been underwhelming considering how much I run, so you're probably right, I would just like to understand why. Why can I not run that well despite being run fit and why will I run well after training high bike volume, lowish run volume.
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [Gashman] [ In reply to ]
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Gashman wrote:
AMT04 wrote:
....I now have a coach .....

I cut the irrelevant.

You have a coach. So talk to her not a load of random people that have never met you, seen you, reviewed your aspirations, lifestyle or constraints.

(FWIW then I was at 50km/week for my training for my last IM with a long run of 30km - and this was for training with a c10:30 finish time).
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [125mph] [ In reply to ]
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55 miles would likely take more than 7 hours for most people so that would leave less than 8 hours to swim and bike during the week.

If in fact you could sustain a 15 hour week (coming from 7-10 hours a week).
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
If in fact you could sustain a 15 hour week (coming from 7-10 hours a week).

Well he's now had five and a half years to build up to it ;-)
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [Gashman] [ In reply to ]
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For most, you can keep run fitness up with cycling time. It's about optimization. For me, I can run a sub 3:05 marathon and 1:25ish hm during the offseason when I'm running 60+ MPW (8-9 hrs) with maybe an hour or two of cycling as cross training. When I move to tri-season I'll try to bike between 8-10 hrs a week and swim 2-3 hrs and run 3.5-4 hrs (usually between 30-35 mpw). For me during a HIM I will be targeting a ~2:20 bike then trying to run a 1:30 HM after the bike which is only 5-7 mins off the open time. If I kept the same offseason running MPW, then I'd probably only have 4-6 hrs of time to ride the bike (still have a day job you know, even if it's flexible). If I tried to still bike a 2:20 off that, I would be gassed coming off the bike and probably be running closer to 1:40-1:45 or worse.

So it's all about the optimization and for the most part that is where having a coach helps. They should have the experience to set a good starting point of how much you should be doing in each discipline to have a solid race, but then, after seeing you complete workouts for a few weeks will have better understanding of your weaknesses and alter your training plans to optimize your best race.
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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I understand what you are saying and I was trying my best not to be snarky but:

I've seen so many people think they can double their volume just because they've taken up ironman just to go back to the same training hours they did before. A logical approach would be to gradually increase volume to their max sustainable effective level. Discovering the level that effective is a long process.

55 miles per week is an attainable goal for a lot of people but to add it to the bike and swim training is a challenge.
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Re: Ironman, max run volume [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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I don't disagree, I was simply drawing your attention to the fact that this thread appears to have been resurrected from 2013!
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