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I swim harder but don't go any faster - HELP!
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Goal for this winter is to improve my swim so that I can be more competitive at a draft-legal sprint distance race next year. At the moment I swim the 750 m in the lake in just under 12 minutes (in a wetsuit), but in the pool it takes me at least 12:30. I train with a masters swim club and we swim repeats all the time, especially 100 m repeats. I was swimming yesterday and the coach told us to swim the first 100 easy, the second harder and the third fast. On each of the three sets, I swam 1:35 for the "easy", 1:33 for the "medium" and 1:33 for the "fast". I finished the "easy" 100 barely breathing hard, I finished the "fast" 100 pretty close to max heart rate in the pool. On the "easy" I was taking 19 strokes for every 25 m, on the "fast" I was taking 23 strokes. I feel as though the harder I try to pull, the more my hand slips, my elbow drops and I'm just way less efficient. Does anyone know any good drills that would help me to address this? I'd really like to be able to swim my 100s in 1:30 or less and I think I should be able to, I just can't speed up my cadence, pull harder and not lose grip on the water. Are there dryland exercises that would help with this or is it just about "feel for the water"? I swim twice a week right now and could maybe get to the pool for a third swim but that's about it, so please don't suggest I swim every day because that's just not possible for me.

Thanks for any helpful advice - I never swam competitively as a kid so I'm sure there's a lot for me to learn about technique...
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Re: I swim harder but don't go any faster - HELP! [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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I would explain maybe 20% of this by: The first one you are starting from a resting heart rate so it feels really easy. By the third you're building on a higher heart rate.

I think the rest is thinking about what you change to get variable speeds. I don't really think about pulling harder. I activate my kick and hips and maybe increase stroke turnover. When I'm out of shape I have less variable speeds to call on.

For a set of three one hundreds, I'd do something like this

1. The pace I can go for an hour. Not much kick, just enough to keep my legs up
2. 800 meter pace. Well pronounced two beat kick, making sure my stroke stays in rhythm with my kick.
3. 400 meter pace. Same as number 2 but increased stroke rate.

If I'm doing 25 or 50 sprints, I'm kicking as hard as I can and stroking as fast as I can.

Just my 2 cents
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Re: I swim harder but don't go any faster - HELP! [Jason AZ] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the input Jason, how do you increase stroke rate without losing grip on the water? That's my block right now I think.
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Re: I swim harder but don't go any faster - HELP! [Jason AZ] [ In reply to ]
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Swim is like golf. You have to master the form to go fast. It's not about how hard and fast you move your arms and legs. You have to lengthen yourself all the way, reach out, catch, don't drop the elbow, pull hard and push till the end efficiently. Swim is either you get it or you don't. I used to be just like you, but after I learn how to swim efficiently with a right form, everything got much easier. Some coaches don't know crap and they just assume you got it although you have no clue about what you are doing. I took two different master's swim and none of the coaches was able to teach me right. Anyway, focus on pulling hard right and your swim will improve for sure. My 100m time is close to you, but I don't run out of breathe. I wish I could meet you in person and show you.
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Re: I swim harder but don't go any faster - HELP! [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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I know you didn't ask about the recovery stage but I watched a video the other night that I thought was interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYFxa3PykdA I think basic distance and triathlon swimming teaches you high elbow recovery, hand close the water. Once you start swimming faster this kind of goes out the window. If you watch Olympic sprinters they often have straight arms in recovery.

When I'm over tired from other training sessions or from being over threshold, my elbow does the same thing your saying. I don't grab the water as well. The more tired, the worse it looks and feels. So I would say maybe your first 100 you should swim slower so that you aren't over threshold by the end. I doubt the intent of the workout is for you to be swimming that hard.

Other than that, I would say figure out your stroke rate, post it on here and see if people think it's slow or fast. Or if there is opportunity to increase it. If there is opportunity, then you can practice it. It's like trying to increase your run cadence. You can't do it overnight, for the whole run, or you will hurt yourself.

I wouldn't overlook the activating your hips and two beat kick thing. That's my primary go to when I have those variable sets.

I also think it's important to maintain your streamline. I see some people totally breakdown when swimming faster. Their head and shoulders go one way and their hips go another. They temporarily fix it with a pool buoy but don't address it long term.
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Re: I swim harder but don't go any faster - HELP! [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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If you are losing your grip on the water then you need stronger muscles to hold form. Swimming is form. Get a band, not a drunk singer and bass player, but a stretch cord band and bend over at the waist to replicate the swimming form. It's also a great way to warm up when a pre race swim is not allowed.
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/...se-resistance-bands/
I didn't read the article because I'm 4 whiskeys in but I'm sure this explains it. Google 'Swimming stretch cord exercises' for more.

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: I swim harder but don't go any faster - HELP! [timr] [ In reply to ]
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timr wrote:
I didn't read the article because I'm 4 whiskeys in but I'm sure this explains it. Google 'Swimming stretch cord exercises' for more.

This is gold!
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Re: I swim harder but don't go any faster - HELP! [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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You may also be turning into more of a parachute the less oxygen you have...I know for myself, in an Individual medley after the breast stroke leg, no matter which IM (100, 200, 400), my first 25 free is a disaster....no streamline and no pull as I am cooked from the breast stroke leg. 25m later, I get my streamline back and I also get a bit more grip on the water the more streamlined I am with the other parts of my body because they are more relaxed and not using oxygen...so I have more oxygen to give the working parts that need to grip the water so they are literally "stronger".

The biggest thing that I learned from all the ST fish threads is that I need to make a smaller hole in the water and slice through, no matter which stroke we're talking about....so I am trying to be less parachute and more relaxed which gives me more oxygen for the catch and pull.
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Re: I swim harder but don't go any faster - HELP! [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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samtridad wrote:
Goal for this winter is to improve my swim so that I can be more competitive at a draft-legal sprint distance race next year. At the moment I swim the 750 m in the lake in just under 12 minutes (in a wetsuit), but in the pool it takes me at least 12:30. I train with a masters swim club and we swim repeats all the time, especially 100 m repeats. I was swimming yesterday and the coach told us to swim the first 100 easy, the second harder and the third fast. On each of the three sets, I swam 1:35 for the "easy", 1:33 for the "medium" and 1:33 for the "fast". I finished the "easy" 100 barely breathing hard, I finished the "fast" 100 pretty close to max heart rate in the pool. On the "easy" I was taking 19 strokes for every 25 m, on the "fast" I was taking 23 strokes. I feel as though the harder I try to pull, the more my hand slips, my elbow drops and I'm just way less efficient. Does anyone know any good drills that would help me to address this? I'd really like to be able to swim my 100s in 1:30 or less and I think I should be able to, I just can't speed up my cadence, pull harder and not lose grip on the water. Are there dryland exercises that would help with this or is it just about "feel for the water"? I swim twice a week right now and could maybe get to the pool for a third swim but that's about it, so please don't suggest I swim every day because that's just not possible for me.

Thanks for any helpful advice - I never swam competitively as a kid so I'm sure there's a lot for me to learn about technique...

An easy 100 should leave you NOT breathing hard at all. Based on your 750 m TT in 12:30, you're averaging 1:40 for a hard 750 m effort, so I would say your easy 100s should be around 1:50-ish, or even 1:55, your medium effort (for a single 100) at 1:40, and then your fast 100 at 1:33. Regarding the increase in strokes per length (spl), going from 19 to 23 is a bit much but 22 would not be unreasonable. As you continue to swim, I feel confident that your fast 100s will improve to below 1:30. Swimming a third time per week would certainly be beneficial but you are doing pretty well as you stand on just the 2/wk. Keep up the good work!!!


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: I swim harder but don't go any faster - HELP! [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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I've often wondered about the idea that if you want to go faster you have use more strokes.
But I'm not sure that's really true.

Go watch a few Olympic swim videos and you will see that in the 100 they take about as many strokes as you do, over 100m But they do them really fast.
So in a 100m at medium speed you take something in the region of 72-80 strokes (when you are most efficient). If you watch (and count) a 100 at national or international level, you will see they take a similar number of strokes, only they do them all in 50 seconds, instead of a 100 seconds. So it's strokes per minute rather than strokes per distance.

If it takes more strokes to go faster over the same distance then you are losing distance on your stroke, which means you are losing your hold on the water. The catch, that everyone talks about and holding that while you pull or lever your body over a stationary hand is what swimming really is.
That's why it's so complicated.
It's strength and technique.

One without the other is a waste.
If you have the technique, you need strength. If you have the strength and apply it without gain, then you need technique.

There's a reason that coaches like Sutton love pulling and more pulling, with or without paddles, with sim suits or a buoy, all the real speed is in the hands.
Yes you can get additional speed from the kick, but without that pull you won't ever have the strength and endurance to go fast and long.
So go pull and oh yeah do a few pushups and pull ups (lots and lots).

In the pool if you are going slower it's almost certainly because you haven't got the buoyancy of the wetsuit to help and need more strength. Your legs might be low/dragging in the water. You can take to time to rectify that, with a better kick or body position. When you try to go fast with more strokes, you almost certainly end up with your shoulders higher and more drag. It's tough as an adult swimmer to learn all that.

Learn to swim for the wetsuit in a pool, get a simsuit (Roka has a nice one)
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Re: I swim harder but don't go any faster - HELP! [michael Hatch] [ In reply to ]
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I always think of this conundrum by thinking about my 12 year old daughter in the pool. She's skinny and weak but can effortlessly swim 20 seconds per 100m faster than me. There must be some magic that happens during the many hours and years of swim club compared to me, as a middle-aged triathlete who swims once a week, regardless of strength.
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Re: I swim harder but don't go any faster - HELP! [RCCo] [ In reply to ]
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RCCo wrote:
I always think of this conundrum by thinking about my 12 year old daughter in the pool. She's skinny and weak but can effortlessly swim 20 seconds per 100m faster than me. There must be some magic that happens during the many hours and years of swim club compared to me, as a middle-aged triathlete who swims once a week, regardless of strength.

I saw a guy at the pool today, strong & ripped to the max...and he was doing flat out 50's in about 57 seconds :)
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Re: I swim harder but don't go any faster - HELP! [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Since you feel you lose your grip on the water and can’t pull harder when you speed up your cadence, it sounds to me like a timing issue. You seem to be working your arms too fast/hard in relation to your core, and are therefore, unable to leverage your body over your arm (paddle). Swimming is about core, not (just) arms and legs. You need to sync up the rotation of your core (from hips to shoulders) with your press and push on the water. Once you have done that, you can play with the cadence. Set up your entry and catch, and use your core rotation while you “hold onto the water” to press and push your body forward. Only press and push when your arm is perpendicular to the water.
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Re: I swim harder but don't go any faster - HELP! [RCCo] [ In reply to ]
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RCCo wrote:
I always think of this conundrum by thinking about my 12 year old daughter in the pool. She's skinny and weak but can effortlessly swim 20 seconds per 100m faster than me. There must be some magic that happens during the many hours and years of swim club compared to me, as a middle-aged triathlete who swims once a week, regardless of strength.

It's not "magic" but rather 100s of hours of practice. Your "skinny and weak" daughter has good swim-specific strength relative to her size.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: I swim harder but don't go any faster - HELP! [RCCo] [ In reply to ]
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RCCo wrote:
I always think of this conundrum by thinking about my 12 year old daughter in the pool. She's skinny and weak but can effortlessly swim 20 seconds per 100m faster than me. There must be some magic that happens during the many hours and years of swim club compared to me, as a middle-aged triathlete who swims once a week, regardless of strength.

It's not magic, it's stroke development. Swimming is about efficiency, not brute strength (unless you are swimming the 50 free at elite levels and even the efficiency plays a huge role).
Last edited by: MBaier: Nov 9, 19 21:09
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