Cycling, I do not care about. How does this apply to swimming and running? Same?

if I ate 2 gels per hour for every swim workout I did while I'm at school, it'd get wicked expensive. Particuarly for swim doubles :) ooooh when's school start.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Cycling, I do not care about.

Out of respect for you, I am not going to report this to your bike.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Calories will help your workout the day after no matter how long you are going. Long term, over a period of months, this will make a difference in your level of fittness.

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infinIT Nutrition
Custom Blended Nutrition Solutions
http://www.infinITNutrition.com

Then there's the school of though that says a body gets stronger the more you stress it. One of the guys I trained with was the US 50K record holder and Henry Rono's coach and agent when he was breaking all those records. I don't remember him ever carrying food on his long runs and he was one of the best in his day and has probably forgotten more about running than you and I combined will ever know.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Probably he forgot about the catabolic effects of training with low glycogen levels.

I try... I just don't like it... I'll get quick moments while cycling that are cool, like riding down Cottage Street in the morning, and Sargent Drive's a dream (I hear cadillaps are nice too) but it just doesn't have that "flow" feel like swimming or running do. Swimming, water is like a thousand tiny kisses all over your skin and there's the wonderful breathless taste of an interval you almost miss... running, 6 at 6.

cycling just doesn't match the other two for me (this is the wrong sport for someone who doesn't like to bike)

But thanks for not telling her! If all goes well, we're racing the County Open Half Marathon (and 25 mi bike race in the afternoon, because people in Northern Maine come up with some crazy races) on August 11 and I need her to cooperate.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Probably he thought that he could lessen the catabolic effects of training (and racing) with low glycogen levels by training with low glycogen levels. Probably had a point too given the fact that he ran a 2:50 50K in Central Park on a long course, without eating any gels and a 2:16 in Boston without eating any gels. But hey, what does he know.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Maybe he was a 2:10 marathoner, who knows? Using someone's practices and their results does not validate the practices.

You should eat a total of 21 gels during a race. 15 on training days..does that help?

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"ALL DAY LONG"

Sorry to tell you, but 115mi/wk on the bike is not serious training. That is a recreational rider!

Actually, I have to counter that. That may not be Half or full Iron training..but for sprints and olympics it is. I am doing sprints and olympics and training in between 100-120 miles a week on the bike. With sprints and olympics it is about speed. Although I do agree mileage=speed and the cycler, it is all about speed as well. What kind of speed can you sustain for 25 miles? Because I drop people that are good cyclists that train at 16-18 miles per hour.

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"ALL DAY LONG"

Paulo, in the absence of a difinitive scientific study, I'm going to go with a huge body of mishmash data...race results. In the 70s and early 80s when my aforementioned training parner was running 2:16 in boat shoes and a couple of cups of water along the way he had a lot of company in races. There were a lot of guys running very fast times on the same diet. Today we have a mountain of sports nutrition products, a slew of sports nutritionists, and a cabal of sports coaches all advocating this product or that and what do their combined efforts produce???? hundreds of thousands of 5 hour plus marathoners and very few running 2:16.

There is no disputing the fact that average race times have slowed a lot since the 70s and participation levels are not that different. We have more science at our disposal and people are slower. I'm not saying there is a cause and effect relationship between GU/Gel products and slower times, even a correlation, just that if they were so effective wouldn;t you expect to see a movement towards faster not slower times?

I am not even disputing the value of GU/Gel products only that their benefits are being vastly oversold. Your body can store enough energy for 2-3 hours hard effort without a dropoff in performance if you train it properly. Constantly gulping GU in training is not beneficial unless you are preparing for ultra distance or Ironman events. Training your body to maximize the fuel it has stored is what training is all about.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Prime example of one step forward two steps backward with no calorie intake.

"Examples of catabolic processes include glycolysis, the citric acid cycle, the breakdown of muscle protein in order to use amino acids as substrates for gluconeogenesis and breakdown of fat in adipose tissue to fatty acids." So in layman terms, you lose muscle mass.

<< Sorry to tell you, but 115mi/wk on the bike is not serious training. That is a recreational rider! >>

Hi, I am HALF a recreational rider then. I'm averaging exactly half that mileage this season.

PS - I posted the 7th fastest bike split at Tupper Lake last month on my half recreational riding.
I really aughta get more serious.


To the OP - I don't bother taking in calories for workouts under 90 mins.
Tomorrow I'm going 16m, I'll have 2 gels for that, and 2 8oz flasks of water.
(and a 16 oz cup of water before I start, otherwise nada)
I do make sure to get in some cals and lotsa water within say 15-20 mins of finishing however.

Once you go over 2hrs, taking in cals (doesn't hafta be gels, I like kitkat bars or snickers on long bike rides if it's cool enuff that they won't melt) is a good idea, both for the training and to help lessen recovery cost.

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float , hammer , and jog

running

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Thank you....and I have posted the top 5 bike split in 3 of the last 4 races too, and I don't train that much. Isn't it fun dropping people!!!

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"ALL DAY LONG"

Back in those days, Carlos Lopes had the world record and went on to win the Olympics. His pre-race meal was steak, eggs and french fries. Obviously I advise that to all my athletes.

And because he ran 2:07, I win our little contest, under your own set of rules.

If you're breaking down protein on a 2 hour bike ride you should go check yourself into a hospital immediately because you are severely malnourised.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

See how you have misconceptions about this subject? Around that duration that's when the abovementioned catabolic processes start to happen in the absence of carbohydrate intake. It doesn't depend on "malnourishment", it depends on your levels of blood and muscle glycogen before the start of exercise.

Not my rules.

the dataset I prefer to use is the average marathon times in the 70s when people drank a little water during a marathon and today when they have 50 different sports drinks, capsules, GUs, Gels, Pastes and Powders and the end result are tens of thousands of 6 hour marathoners and very few guys sub 2;15 anymore. As i said there are no studies linking slower times to the increased use of nutritional products, but if as you say they are sooooo useful wouldn't we see just a little bit of an average improvement in race times?

And as for the people who consistently run sub 2:15, our Kenyan brethern, how many of them do you see lugging fanny packs of GU and Powerade on training runs or races. They load up before going out to run.

Nutritional products have their place, they play a role, but its a fraction of what they tell you it is. If you have a good breakfast before your long run you'll get through it just fine without a GU every 45 minutes and you;ll probably benefit a lot more from the run by training your body how to burn its stored fuel in an efficient manner instead of constantly injecting sugar and then crashing 15 minutes later.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Just out of curiosity, when was the last time it was 90 in Ottawa?
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Born again Heathen
In Case of Keith Moon - Break This Glass
Ironman Certified Coach
USAT Certified Coach
Precision Nutrition Certified

Do you really think it was the water that made people faster back then??? It was the TRAINING!

are you seriously advocating that keytosis is likely in a well nourised athlete who goes on a 2 hour bike ride? I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times i have experienced keytosis and I was never very careful about my nutrition. A toasted bagel or a bowl of cornflakes was enough to see me out the door for a 22 mile run.

A 2 hour bike ride is nothing in comparison. Paulo, its not my intention to cast aspersions, but many people in the coaching fraternity who make a living coaching amateur weekend warrior type athletes do so by making it more complicated than it really is. If Joe Public realises that he doesn't need a professional nutritionist to get out there and train his balls off then people like you are out of a job.

Its not that complicated. Eat well, drink, train....bonk occasionally...eat some more....bonk less often. Thats about it in a nutshell....but who is going to pay $250 a month for that????

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

But according to your logic, all the training in the world isn't going to help if you aren't eating enough GU because your blood glycogen will plummet and you'll turn into a jello blob on the road.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

You need to do some reading on this subject and come back. Nothing advanced is needed, don't worry.

Regarding the passive-aggressive remarks against the "coaching community", you can take that way of debating back to the LR. I for one don't apreciate the style.