Bravo to the refs out there on the bike course. I saw a lot of slashed bib numbers for drafters, and the penalty boxes seemed to have a few in them each time. I saw the refs warning a lot people in the first 20 miles or so, and then after that they seemed to take no mercy.

And I completely agree about the vast majority of riders doing an excellent job spacing themselves out well. Even from my vantage point of being smack in the MOP herd coming out of the swim, the bike mass was strung out pretty well within mile 5-10. The slight incline and head wind on the out loop helped too.

ITU doesn't allow drafting for Age Groupers. It's just the pros/Olympics/Junior Elites that get to draft. Maybe ITU thinks that letting packs of AGers draft may not be the best idea?

Wow...37.20mph why isn't that guy in the TdF?!?!?!?!?! He could win it outright but must have been sandbagging the second loop at 15.6mph. Good thing he put in that superhuman effort to get in under 5:35 on the bike course, but it must have really hurt him a lot on the run. Talk about going too hard on the bike! 6:23 marathon must have been all his poor quads could handle!

The funny part is this personal trainer had a really good T2 time for how tired he must have been after cutting the course. Ooops did I just say I thought he cheated?

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Official results are up and they don't appear to have caught it.

-Jot

I was out there yesterday. Came out of the water in 59, and I am a better swimmer than biker, so I got to see a lot of folks come by me. One large pack of about 15 going up the Beeline loop 1, with a guy trailing who was clearly hammering to get on the tail end, which he did. Said "nice pack" as they came by. Saw 4 or 5 other mini pelotons

Then on lap two, passed a woman from Rincon Tri Club who grabbed my wheel. I was pissed, I slowed down moved right. As she passed she said "I was using you to work out a cramp." WTF? Passed her again. about 10 minutes later she comes by on the wheel of two other riders.

I did see lots of folks in penalty, and my wife said the hot corner penalty box got a lot of action. Saw one guy ahead of me that I had been leapfrogging with get nailed. Have to say the refs give plenty of opportunity to get clean. Followed him from a distance for a good minute before pulling up with the red card.

Although it was crowded, it was VERY easy to ride clean. No excuse for drafting.

I swam a 53:40 or so and biked a 5:45 so I got to see most of the top age groupers pass me on the bike. The 1st loop - I'd be riding along and a group of 3-7 would pass me - then nobody for a minute or so then another small pack. Sure seemed like they were all together. I'd have some solo riders go by but most people on that 1st loop were in small packs.

Lap 2 - I followed a group of 4 that pace-lined at least 5 miles of the Bee Line - all within 2-3 feet of each other. Very, very blatant.

I saw several pairs that looked like a guy pulling a girl.

Seemed like I saw a ton of drafting....

Dave

What? Just cause you could not have a negative split and avg 37mph on your final loop? That is why he was 15mph the second loop....saving his strength!

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I'll agree - It was pretty easy to ride clean. I swam 1:14, so I was well in the thick of people. I only had to do some real dropping back maybe 2 or 3 times, and that was when I started getting passed by thick packs and I wanted to make it obvious that I was dropping back, lest an official come up. The rest of the time, it was easy to just let up ever so slightly for a few seconds before resuming my normal pace.

Frankly, anyone who says it's impossible to not draft in an Ironman is full of crap.

One of the funniest things that happened all day, however was when I got passed by a guy with a girl glued to his wheel. An official rode up behind them, slowed, down, and then a guy behind me started cheering. "Oh man! Here it comes! Oh no! ... OH THERE IT IS! WHOOOO!" That was pretty funny.

I found it interesting that despite the number of draft packs, the penalty tent on Bee Line was completely empty every time I passed it. I never looked in the one near the transition area because I was enjoying the crowd, but I thought it was funny that they had it right in the middle of all the spectators. Shame tent!

Can see your point. The cheaters will win as they get the Kona spots.

Used to look in amazement at the winning pro's but was a bit put off in my first iron-distance event. There was Chris MacDonald and another guy out the front doing big solo efforts and then along comes a bunch of 3 guys(all bikes overlapping). Well the first and third come out of the little group. And the funny thing was this was the only group of three i passed(out and back loop), out of all those in the race.

It would certainly be annoying if you were pipped for the top prize money by a group of cyclists.

So the moral of the story is if you can't beat the cheats then join them otherwise your payday will be reduced. Another problem is that the winning triathlete might have to work so hard to beat the cheats that they cause an injury to themselves.

Also the one qualifying world champs i did, the biggest bunch of guys to come past was 10 or so top age-groupers(including ex elites), and the most well known one did get busted soon after. These guys really want to prove something to others and win which is understandable.

Didn't draft myself as was just happy to participate.

The only time I was annoyed about drafting was when reading a little article in a local rag about a little duathlon i went to defend. After the event the group of cyclists behind all said the guy(cop) who pipped me didn't even do any work in the cycle group. It was extreme stormy weather and i was out front by myself. It was supposed to be draft free. The annoying thing was the guy(local cop), was quoted in the local rag saying 'well the light greyhounds win the race in the run'. Typical i thought.....


In big ironman races it is like this:




Move aside new-boy the pro train is coming through!

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http://www.TriathlonShots.com
Full event coverage of triathlon/ironman in photos.

Clint,
I understand your frustration but there are some things about your argument and presentation that are bothering me.

Essentially what you are trying to promote, in essence, is vigilantism and I can not support or condone this as societal history has proven that this is an unhealthy choice when it comes to resolving issues. Also, if I was one of the individuals in your video I would be pissed. We have no idea about mitigating circumstances affecting the situation yet your 20 seconds of video is supposed to be reason enough for these people to be labeled as cheaters. The problem here is that you are stereotyping and stereotyping is not the most friendly brush to paint people with.

I believe your example takes place at 36 miles into the bike course? With the amount of participants on this particular course can you not empathise and almost expect that some packs are going to form? It's one thing to have blatant single file pacing but c'mon...you have to expect this on some level. It's the nature of these situations just as rush hour is to traffic control....ok maybe not "expect" but at least have some level of understanding given the circumstances.

Your argument that Kona slots are being jeapordized does not hold water for me as well. Are you telling me that you believe this little time of getting caught up in a pack at mile 36 into the bike is seriously gonna affect the outcome of your entire day? Talk to me when there is 36 miles left and somebody is pace lining...then perhaps I can support your point.

If the inspiration for your argument is in the name of fairness then are there not more relevant issues? How about the athlete decked out in the latest aero gear as opposed to the athlete who can not afford these goodies. Does this athlete deserve the advantage because they are in the better financial position? Or how about poor Jonny Caron who stands as good (and deserves) a chance on race day as anyone but can barely toe the line because his intestines are trying to destroy him? Is this fair?

I just think there's more pressing issues than a bunch of AG'ers getting bunched up.

And to say that this is "going on Slowtwitch"....I mean for real? Has Slowtwitch really become the barameter of good and evil in our sport? This just struck me as a silly and almost juvenile thing to say and only adds to the cliqueness that I fear exists in our sport.

So....why am I writing such a long winded response to your post? Because, as a lurker, I've always enjoyed your input; both here and on your blog. However, this surprised me as being quite narrow minded from you and as a potential client of yours (and your affiliation with PRPP) I am not sure this example of trying to micro manage an issue would mirror a healthy coaching attitude.

Please take this next comment with a grain of salt but.....don't you have anything better to do? You need to recognize that your comments may hold a little more weight given your position in the industry, who your clients are and the exposure you have access to. I think you need to be more responsible with your dialogue and choice of presentation.

I actually don't have an issue with drafting for people that aren't going to Kona. They are only cheating themselves.

Couple of reasons....
The following year they might miss the train and go an hour slower.
They can never compare times because there are so many outside factors.

The electric scooters exist....they are silent and deadly and all over China...when you run on the roads in China, you don't know when you are going to get hit from the back by a crazy commuter going to work on his electric scooter....they seem to be moving between 30-60 kph, so ideal speeds to match the riders in a race!!! I got hit by one (only lightly) on a run in Shanghai in Sep when I swerved left to make a turn without looking behind me on what was coming...learned my lesson!

Dev

The thing I don't understand is how they guy thinks this is going to work.
If he did two laps he knew a timing mat was at the turnaround.

Hopefully they'll fix that result.

-Jot

One point I have to keep repeating here is that it wasn't just the 20 seconds we saw these guys in the video.
We saw them coming and going - at least 4 minutes. There was room in front of them and room behind them.
They did not need to cheat. They chose to cheat.
But you do bring up a few truth that I do agree with. I would be quite upset if the vigilante action progressed beyond what we saw - which was to yell at the offenders. I must confess as well - one of the reasons I posted the video was because I knew there were no numbers visible. There are limits to how far I'd go here.
You can say that I acted in a juvenile manner, there may be truth in that as well but I can tell you then that I was surrounded by children because the crowd watching this was enraged. The responses on this thread have been overwhelmingly in favor of clean races.
What I'm talking about here is peer pressure. I think we need to start putting it on the cheaters. I read your long post and read no offers of solution. I want to light a candle rather than curse the darkness.
We all hear the common insult - "don't you have anything better to do" and I say that if I spend 5' posting a video and it stops someone from drafting in a future race then I'm okay with that. Sure I could be in Africa putting shoes on children but I'd really like to see less drafting in this sport that I love. I know I'm not alone in this and I do not think that cheating should be something we have to accept as a cultural evolution of our sport.
Life isn't fair, as you point out. Just ask Johnny Caron or the athlete who can't afford the latest gadget but I believe we should do our best to make sure that when that gun goes off the playing field is as level as possible.
And (my last confession) it's not likely I'll be posting too many more videos. This was a special case where it was absolutely clear to all watching (because of the out and back nature of the course) that this pack was in violation of the rules.
And, as I pointed out, it takes no time to shoot the video and post it but it does take a lot of time to then stay on the thread and try and respond to everyone - something I think people should do if they're going to put something like that up.
So I guess in the end you're right. I do have more important things to do.
And now I must get to the airport.

They have the run and bike splits posted now (as well as being able to
download your finisher's certificate).

I only really saw one run split that looked way off. Missed two timing
mats, and ran the last 6 miles at a 5:59.

-Jot

ITU doesn't allow drafting for Age Groupers.\\\

Ha! Ha!, that's a really good one. You obviously have never been to one of their championship AG races..Go to worlds sometime, and you will be hard pressed to see a rider alone on their bike courses..Pretty much understood that all the wolds races are draft legal for AG'ers.....Funny thing too, there is not wholesale crashing and carnage like many here always predict will happen if AG'ers are allowed to draft, and everyone on real tri bikes too. Not the modified ones the pros use...

I'm just saying that is what the rules say. Of course, if you don't have referees out there to enforce the rules, then of course you'll probably have to ride draft-legal to stay competitive. But is this a case of "don't ask, don't tell"? If there is a pile-up in an ITU AG races because of riders being too close, then will it be the riders' fault because they're breaking the rules?

I've been to both big and small US races, and for most of them I have not heard complaints about draft packs afterwards. I seems to be a small number of races (and not just the IM races) that get the most notoriety. Maybe it's because, like the daily news, it's not flashy or doesn't sell for people to come out and say "Hey, I raced this race last weekend, and drafting wasn't an issue!!!"

Martin, I see no issue with the folks that go back time and time again. They are having great time. It is the few that go back time and time again, and then come onto ST and bitch about it. They clearly are missing something in their life to spend so much time worry about others.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I think you need to be more responsible with your dialogue and choice of presentation.

If you know Clint, you know that he is one of the most knowledgeable and funniest guys in the sport. He's seen it all and then some.

I am sure his thoughts were let's try this and see what happens. It's not perfect and it's not "right", but we are dealing with to a certain degree an intractable problem that really has no easy or obvious solution.

You seem to be advocating self-policing. Which Ironically, is how the no-drafting rules on the bike evolved in the first place. It was a gentleman's agreement, to not draft and take advantage. Worked wonderfully for a number of years. However, as the sport grew rapidly and become much more competitive in the lat 80's and early 90's, this gentleman's agreement started to fall by the wayside. It's reached it's zenith or nadir, depending on your perspective, at the ITU World Championships in the summer of '92 when almost the entire men's elite field of 100 emerged from the swim within a few seconds of one another and despite a very challenging bike course, they ended the 40K bike even more compressed and closer together.

Many propose these very complex and involved tracking, and monitoring and officiating solutions to get rid of drafting. They are all novel and good, but have you ever noticed that the best sports are often the ones with the least rules and the least amount of officiating. It's about the competition, not the rules. It's the competition on the course or the field that should settle things, not some complex set of rules that few seem to understand. I note this thread is a lot about that last point - as I have stated in an earlier post. You can't assess drafting fairly given the current rules, from a stationary spot on the side of the course with a camera - whether still or video.The only way that the rules can be fairly enforced, is in motion at race speeds over the course of 20 -25 seconds. It's a very dynamic, ever changing and ever evolving thing. They may look like they are drafting but they very well may not be. It's already a bit too complex. Try explaining the rules to a lay-person and they will have no idea what you are talking about!!

Not sure where I am headed with this other than to say, this was a problem 15+ years ago, it's only become worse and still no one really wants to do anything about it.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Mark, yep, I have seen some of it at ITU Worlds. Just wish I was good enough to have been able to jump in one of those packs. Maybe in Gold Coast, will see.

I still think so many complain because these folks that are good on the bike, would be forced to learn how to swim, which takes way too much work and commitment.


Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Hrm. It seems to me there are two types of people (And many are both) that care about abolishing drafting.

1. People that play by the rules and care about the integrity of a sport
2. People that generally place high in the OA and their AG categories.

The general AG'er and casual athlete is looking for any advantage they can get. ST has a very large population that eschews drafting, but it's also a group of people that care enough about their sport to hop on their computers and participate on an internet forum related to their activity. It is a microsampling of the # of people that do triathlons.

Add to that the # of people that "do" an IM or other triathlon because it's hip and cool and has a "wow" factor, the "one and done" crowd, and they could care less about drafting or other problems in the sport.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Lap 2 - I followed a group of 4 that pace-lined at least 5 miles of the Bee Line - all within 2-3 feet of each other. Very, very blatant.

I saw several pairs that looked like a guy pulling a girl.

Seemed like I saw a ton of drafting....

Dave,

Key word - "seemed"

I am not saying you did not see any drafting, you probably did. However, most athletes like yourself are making their observations of those ahead of them drafting when they are 20 or meters adrift. At that point, you can't tell if they are legal or not. They will always appear to you from your vantage point 20m+ back that they are illegal.

The only way that you can fairly tell if someone is drafting is almost directly from the side or just slightly from behind over the course of 20 seconds of time( when if it's you on the bike in the race doing that - you are drafting !!). I had the opportunity to view the men Pros at IMH from the road and in motion on the course. These guys knew exactly what 10m looked like and they stuck to it, right at the edge. But when you looked at them from more than 10 - 20m back, they looked like they were drafting.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Perhaps, but when someone says "pace-line" I think of people working together, taking turns in front, rotating through. You can observe that from from behind. Assuming that is what the poster meant by saying "pace-lined".