I would love to be 135 and eat my way to my weight of 180. Enjoy being a scarecrow dude and just eat up!

My weight problem is that I can't 'wait' for the next meal!!

Well what were you expecting to run, and on what evidence was that expectation based (open run times, HIM/Oly splits, etc)?

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

A lot of times athlete's don't feel or detect the expense of a fast bike until some point in the run. That's not to say a less than favorable run is indicative of a bike that was too fast; just that the balance point between the two is often times linked.

There are a lot of things that can (and should) be done in training to *find* that balance point - and then on race-day, the task is simply executing based on what you've learned through training.

Before anyone can provide an informed response, I think more details on your race/training would help. First, I assume 5:00 was legit. I was on pace for a 5:10 before a couple flats but it was tough to stay out of the draft packs. Even though I worked hard to stay out of the packs, I still benefited by a couple minutes. Was this your only IM? What were your splits for a HIM this year?

What kind of run training did you do (e.g. bricks, running volume, did you follow a program)? What held you back on the run (leg fatigue, general fatigue, cramps, sore feet)?

I am no expert but I always question when someone is confident in their nutrition unless they have a lot of success at the distance. I keep trying and don't have huge issues (e.g. no GI issues & no cramps) but I know it's not perfect. Tweaking hydration, electrolytes, calories, carbs/prot/fat varies a lot from athlete to athlete and from condition to condition. I think it is like forecasting the weather--there may be a lot of experience and science but it is still easy for the best to get it wrong.

It was my 8th I'm so I think I did have nutrition plan in place. Did one 1/2 IM this summer with time of 4:15, avg bike 23.7mph and 6:39/mile pace on run. Best stand alone marathon a couple years ago was 2:58 and training leading into Arizona was long run of 20 miles and a bunch of 90 minute runs all just under 7:30 pace, one 120 mile bike, three 112 bikes, two 5 hour computrainer rides and maybe 6 century rides. Long brick was 60 mile bike, 90 minute run and weekly tried to run between 15-30 minutes off bike at least twice. Thanks

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http://gozym.com

you over biked.

you don't have a power meter, do you?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

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my run was a bit disappointing and gradually pace got slower.

My bike threshold is about 250 watts and raced yesterday between about 175-195.

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http://gozym.com

But did you spend more time around 195w or more time around 175w? The average and normalized, if you have it, would be most helpful. I averaged 176w but my FTP is 270 and did a 5:08. I biked easy but I figured my best chance was to bike easy and run super hard.

Thanks, Chris

it doesn't matter. how many hours can you hold 175 watts? If you want to do well at IM, it's 10 hours, not just the five on the bike. You went from holding 175-195 (which is a HUGE range for IM) to like 85 watts for a 135 pound guy running 8:30 miles. You ought to be putting out more watts on the run than bike... you get a bigger return on your investment.

question, what pace do you run at on a random Tuesday easy run? If it's slower than your IM run pace, than maybe you need to work on your running. I feel however that you over biked and also can't handle 175 watts for the full IM time that you are racing.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

go through your power files. See what watts you hold in training over multiple rides for whatever your race time is.
Then use that as a starting point to figure out what your wattage should be.
imo just choosing a % of 1hr FTP to race IM is ass backwards and dumb.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

The reason for the 175-195 range was that I was on the higher end on the Beeline which was steady uphill and into the wind, versus staying near 175 for most of the rest of the race. I do wish I had my powertap to give you exact data and feedback but it is being shipped back home right now with my bike.
Random Tuesday run, and any run that I have done in probably yhe last 3 months, has never been slower than 8 minute mile, that's lower end of heart rate zone 1 and very easy pace; which is why the disappointment with my pace at Arizona. So, from your standpoint is that an indication of cooking it on the bike or more focus needed on run endurance, leg strength? Thanks

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http://gozym.com

Another vote that you overcooked the bike. Also, if you want to run faster, then you need to run faster... Sounds crazy, but my buddy who ran a 3:20 yesterday at IMAZ (7:40 pace?) routinely runs 7 min/mile or faster on almost all of his runs. If you are running just under 8 min/miles... then your 3:40 is about on pace with expectation.

Just my thoughts.

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Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!

 
4:15 half IM is fast. You should be <9:30 guy at AZ with that - and with a 6:40 pace on the run at a half IM - you should be well under 8 min for a full IM. You should be able to run 3:20-3:25 I'd think. Either you:

1) overcooked the bike. How did you determine your FTP? What was NP and AP for AZ? How much time over 220 watts at AZ?

2) Are a naturally fast runner but didn't run enough to run well after 7 hours of racing....how many miles/week over the past 6 and 12 months? How did you pace the run by 10K's?

3) Blew something else - hydration/nutrition....

Dave

How many times did you run 20 miles?

How many times did you run 20 miles?

I just did a single 20 mile run and a bunch of 16 milers. I tried doing more often but shorter more intense runs instead of long and steady because have had some IT Band issues in the past going too long on some training runs.

Dave, sorry but what is NP and AP? I probably was over 220 1-2 times during race for a few seconds at most, I think from scrolling through powertap my max was 233 which must have been just a quick spike while out of the saddle to stretch the legs.

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http://gozym.com

sorry but what is NP and AP

that really doesn't help. So what is it, different people may have different terms for relatively the same thing ie LT, FTP, 40k TT and 1 hour power measure.

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http://gozym.com

 
AP = average power of your ride.

NP = normalized power of your ride.

FTP/40k TT power/1 hour power are essentially the same but sometimes people measure them in funny ways....so how did you measure yours?

Also details of miles (running), I think is key. If you do a lot of short/fast runs - but have minimal miles in you - then you likely won't run as well in longer races. How many miles did you average over the past year?

What was your AP at your half IM?

Dave

in general my running was short run off intense bike on Tuesday, long run on Wednesday, middle distance run friday and brick run on either Saturday or Sunday. Miles per week was mostly between 30-40 with max of 48 about 6 weeks ago.
My LT of 250 was based on 40k TT test on Computrainer, measured by former US Postal team member (not that it matters but he knows what he's doing). My AP for 1/2 IM this year was 205 and at my only Olympic race this year was 226 with overall time of 2:02. Thanks

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http://gozym.com

I see a problem right there which is just one reason why people are insisting on more specifics. You're basing your FTP/LT on a CT test. Indoor riding and outdoor riding is different for most people. Now if you were racing on a CT then it might be more relevant.

Secondly, Brian (Desert Dude) and I talked about this a bit over lunch the other day but he raises a very good point about basing IM pacing guidelines solely off a ~1hr all-out effort. I think 5hr power must be a strong consideration which is why he's asking about your long ride power. Think of it as a fatigue resistance or stamina component. This is often but not always reflected in an individual's power curve. For IM, really flat power curves are a good indication that you can hold a greater % of FTP than someone with who has a drop off between 3 and 5hrs, for example.

I honestly wish that we would come up with something other than a % of FTP when we're talking about long-course pacing. It gets people too focused on 1hr max power. The are other factors that need to be considered.

Also, you need to look at the detail in your power files. Unless I'm reading your posts incorrectly, it sounds like you're making statements based on scrolling through your PT screen.

Thanks, Chris

lakerfan makes a great point IMHO. Basing IM pacing off an indoor test that is 1 hour or less (many FTP tests use 20 min tests... ie; CP20) can get you in trouble. As you said it is what power you can sustain on LONG rides that would interest me the most. ie; what was the AP and NP for you 5-6h rides in your training build-up to IMAZ?

Truthfully Computrainer power numbers tend to be a little lower than the power numbers you can put up outside... so this makes the water a bit murkier as well.

Many coaches and people smarter than me will use the CP20, CP05 minute tests to determine their power zones and pacing for an IM. Personally I think that can work up to olympic or maybe HIM distance... but IM is a different animal.

BTW I've over-cooked my IM rides repeatedly... so I'm sadly speaking from the voice of experience. I used to wonder why my run was not better??? Why did I get cramps???

But the answer is bike fitness and pacing. From your results it sounds like you are an elite (2:02 olympic, 4:15 HIM) so fitness must be there... so the answer has to be bike pacing.

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Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!