I hear it can be treacherous! ;-) Looking forward to the camp report.

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- Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
P. J. O'Rourke

I'm taking my Yaqui Carbo with me for testing. Should be very interesting.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Here's a thought: give me some questions and I will report back to you guys as best I can next week. I know I have a million questions about bicycle/rider aerodynamics. Let me know what yours are.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Ouch! The camp is $2700. or something isn't it. Of course you can put it through the books as a business expense.

Cobb's an interesting guy. Will be interested to hear your report.

Actually it was $3250.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Ouch! Guess we all should have come in for fitting before you had to amortize that into the cost, eh?

Actually, I'll be very interested to see how the "optimum fit" based upon your FIST experience holds up aerodynamically. Should be interesting.

This article about John Cobb seems to indicate the most aero position isn't always the most powerful or comfortable. http://www.byrn.org/cobb_fit.htm

My primary reason for going to this (and incurring the expense) is to develop a more complete perspewctive on all the elements that influence fit. I believe aerodynamics is only one of those elements, but a very important one. Having gone to F.I.S.T. a few weeks ago and now going to John Cobb's wind tunnel clinic and then hitting the Serotta sizing school that is likely to give me a fairly well rounded survey of what the current state-of-mind in road bike/tri bike fit is. I've done the other schools, (NECA, OTC, etc.) and always learned a lot, also, fitting thousands (somewhere around 3,000 and counting) triathletes and road cyclists has been a big help also. You can never learn too much... It's all about sharpening the saw.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom, it's great that you're going and is another indication that you're striving to be the best in your field. The people that will benefit from this the most are your customers. It will be interesting to hear your thoughts on aerodynamics vs power vs comfort for bike fit for the average AG'er when you get back.

-Still looking for compelling questions. I'll start us off:

What is the most aero handlebar combination?
How much difference is there between bar combinations?
How much do aerodynamics mean to beginning triathletes ridings between 16-21 mph?
Wheels: Is there any time when you shouldn't use a disk? When is it "too hilly" if ever?
What effect do crosswinds REALLY have?
Some manufacturers claim their frame/wheels act like a "wing" and create forward movement/lift- is this possible/true? At what speed?
How much do I have to lower a customer's bars to make a difference in drag?
You guys get the idea... Give me some suggestions and questions. It's costng me $3250- I answer your questions free!

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Water bottles. Handlebar mounted bottles are said to add a ton of drag--but they make it much easier to drink and in an iron or 1/2 iron distance that's important. Seatpost/saddle mounted bottles and those on the seattube are generally more aero, but force you to come out of the aero position. Depending on race length, which type of setup is best?

Slam vs. traditional tri position. Slam whom and when?

Value of being 'low' vs being 'narrow' when reducing frontal surface area.

Tradeoffs related to power and aerodynamics and their relationship to the rider's position on the bike.

Ask him why he left Hed and stated Oval concept bars? How does bike weight and rider weight correlate or offset eachother? Ask him about the aero helmets that are out--worth it? Do shoe covers make you more aero or just look cool? How about a skin suit? Gloves? How come with all the technology, do pro cyclist look so awful on their bikes?

I second the waterbottle question. Also, I would be interested in:

aero vs round seatpost (cobb's opinion seems to vary).

Normal vs garneau aero helmet (both with and without visor)

Arms level vs down (seems to be the euro roadie choice) vs arms angled slightly up. All on the aero position.

Also your opinion from watching others in the tunnel as to which rules are absolute for everyone versus which things you have to discover in a tunnel. For example it sounds like the seatpost question can only be answered on a case by case basis.

Thanks,

PS: if you would rather have someone else go in the tunnel for you and you can be an independant observer, let me know ;)

Tom, how about getting a pair of Nimble Crosswinds in there to get an independent view (and JC's for good measure)? Also do you know of a gripshift system that would work with 10 speed Campag on the HED aerobars?



Julian in England.

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"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

I recently saw a preview edition of the next triathlete magazine where they go into the relative merits/demerits of various water bottle types/positions on "aeroness". I have the feeling there will soon be a mass migration one way or another.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Aero bar arm positioning. I would think that an elbows together, hands high position with the hands in a ball (what the divers do for a "splashless entry") would be best. Would putting a barrier between the aero bars in this position improve things even more? This position would allow the head to draft the smaller hands and direct air down and away from the body and would have theoretical advantages (at least to me based upon my musings) over conventional flat arm position, expecially if riding in a more "open" position to maximize power.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

A lot of good suggestions and interesting ideas. I will be working on practical things I can bring back and say "If you do this small change it will have a big effect..." I know there are no "magic answers" but Frank Day's question about aerobar angle is an excellent one. That is something I will be looking into. Also, I want to know how hard I should be pushing customers to get lower and narrower on their bikes and how much of a difference it will REALLY make.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Yea yea yea!!! That would be great if you could get a set of Crosswinds in the tunnel to test alongside a Hed 3 or Corima 4 spoke. Do you know anyone who could loan you a set? For that matter, any wheel from Nimble. I'd like to see some of their aero claims confirmed/questioned by a separate test.

As already mentioned:

- water bottle
- 2 on the frame
- behind the rider
- aerobar drink system in combination with the above

- seat posts (round vs aero)

- 650 vs 700cc wheels

- one piece aerobar vs bullhorns+clipons vs riding the roadie drops

mike

those water bottle questions are "answered" in the upcoming Triathlete article, although it would be nice to see the presented data confirmed in a wind-tunnel. It is always good to get initial data independently confirmed for scientific validity.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

People spend allot of cash on aero forks then think nothing of sticking a lump of plastic on them to tell them their speed. Does it have a noticeable effect? Agreed hydration systems are the big question. Thanks M

Assuming the same aero wheelset [disc rear, deep front] is used.... on a crazy hilly course [such as IM France or PM Zofingen] which is faster a "tri bike" [steep seat angle, one-piece aerobars] or a "road bike" [slacker seat angle, road drops w/clip ons]?

Is there a definite answer to determine when/if a road bike is better than a tri bike [such as a certain amount of elevation gain per kilometer, or when certain % grades of a certain length are present]?

Maybe Dan or JulieAnne can give some feedback based on his/her experience?

Great point about the sensor mounted on the aero forks! I looked at that thing mounted on my Ouzo Pro forks and thought "What in the world did I pay all that extra $$ for?" I was glad to get rid of it last week when I mounted my PowerTap Pro, which places its sensors around the rear of the bike where the air is already "dirty." Now if those sensors were only wireless, I'd have my perfect solution!