I did listen to a podcast about it (but it is in Swedish). If I remember correctly, the spleen sends out reserves of blood and this effect is highly trainable. People who have removed the spleen can't get better at holding their breath whereas people with spleens (and I do believe the size of the spleen matters) could get better quite fast.

If there was any benefit...and I don't think there is....you could say running while breathing through a straw will show benefits but it will not.

From what I understand its not the volume of air that matters its the amount of O2 in the air that matters. That's why all those silly restricting masks you see don't work but training at altitude does. Getting less volume of air with 21% O2 at sea level is just less air at 21% O2. Getting 17% O2 at altitude is totally different regardless of volume

Right. Decreasing ventilation is mechanistically different than altering gas compositions and/or pressures. But there are still plenty of potential mechanisms whereby decreased inspired oxygen could provide a beneficial training acclimation. I was asking the question, hoping that someone was aware of specific literature supporting or refuting the idea.

Also, remember that the percentage of O2 at altitude is still 21%. Altitude decreases atmospheric pressure, resulting in decreased partial pressure of inspired oxygen and that decreases the driving force for gas exchange.

---

---------------------------------------------------------------

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

Definitely helped with my swimming in general and OWS in shitty conditions. Forgetting triathlon for a second, hypoxic training helps you become a better swimmer, e.g with a tumble turn, you can be underwater for longer and be able to have a better push off, breakout etc As far as OWS goes, I've had a few races this season with shitty conditions and breathing every 2 isn't always an option, you go to breathe, you get smashed in the face, sometimes it might be every 4 or even every 6. You can quickly get panicky which is innate. It can be controlled, but not eliminated. You hold your breath underwater, when you run out of air, you start feeling panicked so surface. You can control that and delay it. Obviously any breath holding drills need to be done with a buddy/supervision.

x2 to the above.

Every week or two I like to do a simple set (after warm up and before main set) of 8x50 as breathing every 3/5/7/9 (2x through) repeating on :50 (about 10 sec rest). I kind of puts met in a Zen state. And it helps me stay calm in shitty starts, choppy water, etc. I think it’s mental training more than physical.

I have never heard of this before??!! Can you provide any links etc? I have to say I am rather dubious that this is an effect that is trainable and repeatable, and also would theoretically be a one off event.

As for do I do any hypoxic training....not really but my swim coach makes us do a lot of bilateral, breathing every 4 and 3/5/7 pattern work on more technique focused days. I have to say, when I am carrying significant fatigue into the 3/5/7 sets I really struggle to hold the 7's....

I will try to find the podcast episode again, listen to it once more and provide all the information. It was in conjunction with free diving and people being able to hold their breath for like 20 minutes. How would people be able to do that if the effect is not trainable?

PS: My Swedish is by no means impeccable so I might have interpreted it wrongly but I'm sure some of the Swedes on here can chime in once I've linked to the episode :)

During our pull sets our coach has us do 3/5/7 by 50

---

All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

this was based on a study of a free-diving tribe of nomads, there were lots of stories about it at the time.
For example
https://www.popsci.com/...divers-spleens-bajau

swimswam thinks hypoxic training is mostly nonsense, which would be my opinion too.. not training anything much useful by holding your breath while swimming.
https://swimswam.com/...d-wrong-terminology/
for breathing-limited sets, "the key here isn’t oxygen deprivation but stroke technique development over short distances."

See also shallow water blackout,
https://swimswam.com/...vasas-rob-sleamaker/

There is some evidence for breathing exercises/restrictions done on land though,
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24184589

In the days when I swam Masters, these hypoxic sets were common. But as a swimmer with a long stroke it meant that in a 25m pool I would only get one breath per length anything above 3 strokes. For me that was impossible. Not panicking is pretty simple to learn, not breathing is not an option (for me).

But as a swimmer with a long stroke it meant that in a 25m pool I would only get one breath per length anything above 3 strokes.//

As far as I know, and every program I ever swam in, strokes were counted as one arm per stroke. So even if you take 12/13 strokes a lap, you should be getting in a few breaths at least.


And to answer the OP, dont know about the science. But what I do know, is the more you practice holding your breath, the easier your PE feels. And not just PE, but actual distance swam with limited breathing. We used to do breath hold 25's, and if given sufficient rest, they got easier and easier towards the end. I know when I do static breath holds, they get longer and longer after each one, so something is happening. Same surfing and wave hold downs. First hold down is murder, but by the end of the session it is a piece of cake.


Even if there is no science to back up som positive physiological response, it does get one used to the scrum at the start of a race, and the often lost breath due to lots of things going on around you. Reduces the panic reflex, which can be quite powerful in a negative way..

Well that sure explains why I was lousy at those hypoxic 3,5,7,9, practices.
Of course had I done it properly (or remembered it properly) once you get past 5 strokes you still only get a breath going into the wall, and one breath past the halfway and so on. I, of course, always cheated and did open turns :0).


While there is no doubt that hypoxic breathing practice gives you some comfort if you miss a breath here and there in a pack of swimmers during a Tri, I can find no empirical data that shows it increases performance, only anecdotal opinion. If you want to practice breathing in a pack, play a little water polo, as my Tri club did a few years ago. It went a long way to decreasing the discomfort most feel when banged about a bit.

There are however a few articles and some science to say that there is danger in hypoxic breathing sets.

None of this should be mixed up with Altitude training, which is altogether a different purpose and result.

My own experience is that people often respond to what makes sense to them, science notwithstanding.
I know I do lots of things that have no scientific basis, but give me comfort in preparation for an event.

Taking 15 spl and breathing every 5 strokes, you'd get 3 breaths per length, and actually 15 spl is quite low for a 25 m pool. 15 spl in the 25 m pool translates to about 13.5 spl in the normal (in the U.S.) 25 yd pool, and only very skilled, fast swimmers take 13.5 spl. Either you're pretty fast or you're gliding hugely between strokes???

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I tend towards your thoughts. While hypoxic training is a different angle of attack and a different experience to traditional swimming, I think there could be more negatives than positives. Especially if the stroke breaks down while practicing it.

If training is supposed to be specific, why take out the movement of going for air while swimming?

From the studies I've previously read, there wasn't support for hypoxic running. If it did work, we would probably be doing it by now because it's so inexpensive.

---

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

"The stroke breaks down" is really not an argument for not doing it as you can dolphin kick under water to get the effect. (oh the itchy feeling in quads and chest).

As I scientist I won't say it works, as I haven't seen conclusive studies supporting that statement, but to me it feels a lot easier to breathe after doing 8x25 underwater kicks/crawl with head underwater. I do have a hypothesis that doing 25m crawl without breathing (for someone at my low level) somehow aids in making you efficient. Going too hard and I'm gassed halfway. Going too slow and the breath restriction makes it impossible to reach the other side. Took me a while to be able to go all the way and I still can't do it without having a few "warm ups" of my lungs.

Why just hypoxic swimming? Why not hypoxic running and cycling? Not to mention shallow water hypoxia.
FWIW How can this do anything other than reinforce the stupid idea that if it hurts it must be good for me. When they start doing triathlons where there is less than 21% oxygen then I might entertain the idea.

I was hoping that someone was aware of some actual empirical data that either supported or refuted the practice. No one responded with any so I looked myself. It does appear that swim performance is improved (usually 100m and 400m time trials) with either voluntary hypoventilation or decreased inspired oxygen concentration. I was a little disappointed to discover this because I was in the middle of trying to convince my friend not to do these types of sets. But the data isn't always what you like or expect.

---

---------------------------------------------------------------

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

Hi domiingjm,
Can you provide the references please?
Cheers,
M

Yep. My recollection is that there were 6 or so that specifically addressed the question. I'll get back on here and provide the links later this afternoon.

FYI I just used the search terms "hypoventilation swimming" or "hypoxic swimming" at pubmed. Something like that.

---

---------------------------------------------------------------

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

I used to be one now I'm the other.......

Like your take and experience on how it's taught you better pacing. That's something that I haven't tried yet but will now. Thanks.

---

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

Yes, it is good for faster explosive swim performances where efficiency means taking less breaths and/or staying under water for a period of time. If you practice those skills, you will get better at them.

I think for triathlon -- which values aerobic efficiency over explosiveness and occurs entirely on the surface of the water -- the benefits are more psychological. As Monty spoke about, these drills can lead to less panic during chaotic times of the swim.

I do hypoxic swim work (grew up on swim teams and also doing it) and it is more about increasing your stroke effecncy and moving through the water with less energy spent.

I usually do it during my cool down sets of 200 no breath 25s.

Here are seven that I was able to download in full text. Let me know if these aren't available to you.
Google Drive

---

---------------------------------------------------------------

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm