How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split

Sep 13, 05 7:56

Post #1 of 52 (6090 views)

Let's assume that you already have all the best aero doodads and maxed out your "purchasing of speed". The only way to get faster now is to improve your position and your fitness. Let's assume for a second that you have already optimized your bike position.

That leaves fitness.

Q. How to take 10 min off your ironman bike split ?

A. Ride 3 RPM faster....in the same gears

At the surface this sounds really easy. 3 RPM, seems to be no big deal. But at 90 RPM, you have to now ride at 93 RPM in the same gear. So you'll go 3% faster, which pretty well means 9% higher power output. For someone riding in the 5:20 - 6 hour range, this is around 9-10 min faster.

I was thinking about this on my ride home last nite. So I played around and generally found that I could revv up another 3 RPM out of my body, but it was just a short 35 min bike commute.

This morning I tried it on a 3 hour 90K ride with 2800 ft of climbing before riding into work at 9 am. Whenever, I felt my legs burning and my RPM dropping, I stayed in the SAME gear and tried to spin 3-5 RPM faster. The interesting thing is that it was not super difficult, but I had to keep reminding myself to do it. If not, I kept sliding back to a "comfort zone"

Please note that this is different from dropping it into an easier gear and going 5 RPM quicker. The goal here was to stay in the gear that my legs were already "burning at" and add another 3 RPM.

Typically, my first instinct when things get "difficult" is to either go to an easier gear and spin quicker, or go to a tougher gear and perhaps grind a bit on a false flat downhill, but I rarely stay in the same gear and try to increase my RPM.

I wanted to collect some of your thoughts on this. If there was an "average RPM" guage, the goal would be to stay in the same set of gears for the entire ride and do the ride faster by "averaging" 3 RPM higher.

Bottom line, is that you are trying to squeeze out 9-10% higher wattage out of your body my spinning 3% or so higher in the same gears.

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 8:00

Post #2 of 52 (6067 views)

clif notes: put the hammer down

-zakk

Death Squad Cycling Club
http://www.ridethedeath.com

"Why is that people will drop $2000 on race wheels and a few c-notes for an ugly tattoo and then balk at the race fee?" - Blackie

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 8:31

Post #3 of 52 (5960 views)

Power increases with the cube of velocity. i.e. 3% higher velocity equals 27% higher power. this is rough. it's probably ~2.75 instead of cubed.

Eric

P.S. I think most people on this list already know that if you want to go faster, you can just increase your RPMs. Actually being able to do it when you are already at your AT power, is a different story.

Dimond Bikes Superfan

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 8:35

Post #4 of 52 (5929 views)

Dev,

That makes too much sense. I prefer to throw money at technology that says it'll improve my speed, rather than work on form and spinning ;-).

Chris

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 8:39

Post #5 of 52 (5895 views)

"The goal here was to stay in the gear that my legs were already "burning at" and add another 3 RPM. "

Isn't this the advice you give to someone when they ask how to run the IM marathon 2 hours slower?

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 8:40

Post #6 of 52 (5887 views)

I have been noticing the exact same thing. I have spent the majority of this summer changing my riding from that of a gear masher to a high cadence spinner. Formerly proud of my 11-21 rear (we have very, very steep hills around here, btw), I have moved over to first an 11-23 and am now on a 12-25, with a 53-42 front (650 wheels)

I've decided that my former coach should be locked up for having me on a 56 front at one point.

I have been learning to ride at a cadence and with a style where I simply refuse to put any real load on my quads, learning to ride in gears I would normally never even consider. I used to ride in my 42-13 to about 19mph and then go up to the 53. Now instead I regularly notice myself riding in the 20's in my 42-15.

For no other reason than base work for next year, I've been doing centuries on my own for the past few Saturdays. In past years, when I was in better shape, I would come away from that with incredibly sore legs at the end and the days after.

This year? I'm finishing them much faster, with no pain in my legs at all. Besides being astonished, I'm quicker, by about 15 minutes for 100 training miles. I suffer much less, and the next day I'm ready to go as if I did little or nothing the previous day.

The most noticeable thing is that I arrive at the top of a hill at a higher speed and with the ability to simply ride right over and keep on going. Gear mashing always resulted in a rest period over the top.

This is no news to folks who already realize this, but damn, I wish I'd learned how to do this 10 years ago.

And to Dan's credit - he told me years ago I should abandon that macho 11-21.

BTW, I fully intend to demonstrate one way or another your premise of not doing runs of more than 2 hours for IMUSA next year. I believe that it actually is ABOUT THE BIKE. We'll see!

--------------
Elivis needs boats.

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 8:43

Post #7 of 52 (5867 views)

Do IMUK and skip a loop. (But don't let Wimothy see you or he'll raise a stink.)

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 8:43

Post #8 of 52 (5861 views)

In Reply To:

Power increases with the cube of velocity. i.e. 3% higher velocity equals 27% higher power. this is rough. it's probably ~2.75 instead of cubed.

Are you sure that's right? So, I can ride a 25 mile TT at 25 mph. Lance rides the same TT at 30 mph. That's 20% faster. Going by your maths, that makes 20*20*20 = 8000 % more power !!

I knew Lance was talented, but that lots of watts !!

Now, I don't know anything about how to calculate this, but at a wild guess maybe you calculate that extra 3% by taking the cube, being 1.03^3 = 109.27 %, roughly what Dev said.

In my Lance example, 1.2^3 = 172.8 %. Seems a bit more reasonable that he puts out 73% more watts to go from 25mph to 30 mph.

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 8:48

Post #9 of 52 (5838 views)

Another option would be to average more watts ;-)

Seriously, one thing I can see with the watt meter now is how energy it takes to go 2-3 more mph. I am talking from 21 to 24-25. At 180 watts, I can cruise 21 mph, but it takes another 50-60 watts to go 25. That is a lot more horsepower. I am playing with the cadence as well, just as Dev suggests. The experimentation is a lot of fun.

Mike

Mike Ricci
2017 USAT World Team Coach
USAT National Coach of the Year
Coaching Triathletes since 1992.

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [camel] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 8:51

Post #10 of 52 (5817 views)

You're right. I'm a dumbass.

Lance is also more aero than you are.

Dimond Bikes Superfan

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 8:54

Post #11 of 52 (5795 views)

I believe it is 0.5bv^2, where there is a velocity component to the calculation of v, but going by your formula, it would be 1.03x1.03*1.03 = 1.09.

In any case, I'm wondering if you can train your body to become more efficient to the point that it is putting out 9% more watts at 3% RPM at the same heart rate.

The main point, is that I tend to revert to my comfort zone by dropping it into an easier gear and spinning, or putting it in a higher gear and momentarily cranking (mainly on false flat downhills), vs seeing if I can actually hold a higher RPM in the same gear. I am thinking that part of it is mental and if I can just get my brain used to the "new comfort zone" it might be able to do it. Sometimes your body is actually capable and your brain just has to get used to a new "comfort zone".

I'm not advocating going 9% into the red zone, but I am thinking that you might actually be able to stay aerobic pedalling 3 RPM quicker in the same gearing. Part of it is a technique/efficiency thing. Squeeze 9% more watts out of your body by becoming more efficient ?

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 8:59

Post #12 of 52 (5762 views)

OR Buy yourself a fixie and commute to work everyday. Its all about the TITS = Time in the Saddle!

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [Schwingding] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 9:06

Post #13 of 52 (5741 views)

I'm the exact opposite. I've always been a spinner. Rode most races and training rides at about 100 rpm. I'm now riding at about 90 rpm. I'm much faster with a lower heart rate. The thing that prompted the cadence change was a switch to Rotor Cranks. I find that my hreat rate goes up as my cadence goes up. But, If I get too slow a cadence the quads start to burn too much.

.
.
Paul

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]

Kensho

Sep 13, 05 9:09

Post #14 of 52 (5731 views)

Wow... all Bjorn had to was up his cadence to 75(?) and he would have gone 4:23 at Wisco!

Instead of increasing your rpm by 3, why not just push a bigger gear at the same rpm? Same damn thing. More power.. go faster.

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 9:10

Post #15 of 52 (5723 views)

I can improve my IM bike split by improving my power output?!???!?! NO WAY!!!!!! ;-)

ot

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 9:10

Post #16 of 52 (5721 views)

In Reply To:

You're right. I'm a dumbass.

Lance is also more aero than you are.

Not necessarily (the aero part, not the dumbass part :-) )

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [Mike Ricci] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 9:12

Post #17 of 52 (5711 views)

Mike, I guess I was wondering if I am "softpedalling" by dropping it to an easier gear and spinning quicker.

Here is what I am thinking. If you were "free spinning with zero resistance" with both your wheels elevated in free space (try to visualize ET), regardless of whether you are turning a 53x11 or a 34x25, you are using the same amount of energy to simply turn your leg mass around in circles at 90 RPM.

So if I have a choice of say riding in my 48x15 or my 48x16 and if I do the same RPM, I am still using the same amount of energy just turn my legs in circles. What is changing is a higher percentage of my work/second (power) is going into the moving the bike forward vs just turning my legs around.

The point here, is that there is an energy expense to soft pedalling at high RPM. So you may as well apply high RPM in a marginally tougher gear. I see lots of guys spinning high RPM but not putting any power into the road. They are spending their energy turning their legs in circles for no reason.

Basically there is "spinning" and there is "intelligent spinning"

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 9:12

Post #18 of 52 (5711 views)

Hmmm, to go faster on the bike, pedal faster? Interesting. I will try this 'pedal faster' technique you speak of. Also, can I run faster by moving my feet faster? This I will also try.

Actually, I was considering something similar the other day. The percentage of effort to go from 90-93 rpms isnt too much, and can reap noticeable benefits.

- Nick
Now that I know some of you guys look through the special needs bags for kicks, I'm gonna put some really weird stuff in mine. I can see it now. "What the heck was he going to do with a family pack of KFC chicken, a football helmet full of peanut butter, a 12 inch rubber dildo, and naked pictures of Bea Arthur?"

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [zipp] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 9:12

Post #19 of 52 (5709 views)

[reply]I'm the exact opposite. I've always been a spinner. Rode most races and training rides at about 100 rpm. I'm now riding at about 90 rpm. I'm much faster with a lower heart rate. The thing that prompted the cadence change was a switch to Rotor Cranks. I find that my hreat rate goes up as my cadence goes up. But, If I get too slow a cadence the quads start to burn too much.[/reply]Zipp - 90 is spinning faster for me! Seriously, I've always been a grinder. 90 would be a huge improvement on my cadence. I can't yet do what Dev is suggesting - higher spin in same gear. Till then I'm happy with this new higher cadence in an easier gear.

--------------
Elivis needs boats.

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [camel] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 9:13

Post #20 of 52 (5700 views)

You're right. 20% faster = 1.2, so it is 1.2^3 to get the increase in power. It is slightly more complex than that, since the equation has other factors like RR, but for all practical purposes, it is close enough to just say v^3 (or the percentage up/down) to get power required.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [stallion1031] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 9:17

Post #21 of 52 (5680 views)

...yes this thread is about "the obvious". We know you have to work more to go faster, but there are different ways to do that work. I wanted to get a discussion going about "the obvious". I'm just wondering what you guys are doing :-).

Softpedalling at a high RPM can't be very efficient and I see lots of dudes softpedalling at high RPM at low workloads (easy to do) but then bogging down and cranking when the workload goes up (ie hills). Anyone who has used powercranks knows what I am referring to.

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 9:22

Post #22 of 52 (5648 views)

Quote:

I'm just wondering what you guys are doing :-).

Riding hard when I ride and increasing my 2x20s on my computrainer by 5watts every two or three weeks. Interesting how the body will sort of self select cadence when under duress.

ot

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 9:22

Post #23 of 52 (5644 views)

Interesting thought Dev. You'd be amazed at how many watts you actually use in a high cadence spin - but really the difference in the example you gave is the efficiency. Say you have ridden a fixed gear all winter - 48x15. Then you switch over to a 48x16 - do you think it will take less energy to turn the pedals over? Since you are efficient at the 48x15, it might actually cost you more energy (watts) to turn over the 48x16. Same thing if you run at 7:45 normally and you try to run long at 8:15. If you are inefficient at that pace (8:15) as your stride length changes you are using different (new) muscles so you may actually see a higher HR. I have seen a lot of people run slower and have a higher HR for this very reason. Not sure if this makes sense. Now that I read your post again, I see that I am making the same point you already did.

So, yes, you see lots of people spinning and going no where.

Mike Ricci
2017 USAT World Team Coach
USAT National Coach of the Year
Coaching Triathletes since 1992.

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [j p o] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 9:24

Post #24 of 52 (5639 views)

In Reply To:

"The goal here was to stay in the gear that my legs were already "burning at" and add another 3 RPM. "

Isn't this the advice you give to someone when they ask how to run the IM marathon 2 hours slower?

That made me laugh.

Re: How you can take 10 min off your Ironman Bike split [OT in CA] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 05 9:25

Post #25 of 52 (5635 views)

Ok, so OT has a computrainer and power tap.

just keeping track... ;)

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