I've started to see the odd 120mm disc rotor pop up. In light of the fact that many events don't require a huge amount of braking (and in an effort to reduce frontal area as much as possible), I was wondering if a push to smaller rotors is worthwhile or would even fit the new crop of tri bikes ?
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Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [UK Gearmuncher]
[ In reply to ]
Where have you seen 120? That size is used for BMX applications, but the standard minimum for road/tri/mtb is 140, and I can't think of any bikes in these categories that will accept smaller than that.
Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [UK Gearmuncher]
[ In reply to ]
I had the impression (can't point to 'proof') that it was 140mm.
Looking say at my Tarmac SL6, its a 140 rear and 160 front.
The caliper is a straight mount on the back - it couldn't go smaller as dark as I can see.
(I think the front could go front the 160 down to 140 with a change of the intermediate bracket that links the caliper to the fork).
Going back to mountain bikes when IS mounts were used, the 'standard' mountain sizing for the frame mounting lugs put an IS caliper (without extra spacers) at 140 rear too (and 160 front). Then it was a case of adding spacer brackets available in 20mm hops of rotor size.
For frontal area / drag. Would you really gain much by going smaller? The caliper is still just as in the wind.
You've got an extra rotor frontal of about 2mm thick x 20mm deep. 40mm sq.
I'd rather have the better braking !
Looking say at my Tarmac SL6, its a 140 rear and 160 front.
The caliper is a straight mount on the back - it couldn't go smaller as dark as I can see.
(I think the front could go front the 160 down to 140 with a change of the intermediate bracket that links the caliper to the fork).
Going back to mountain bikes when IS mounts were used, the 'standard' mountain sizing for the frame mounting lugs put an IS caliper (without extra spacers) at 140 rear too (and 160 front). Then it was a case of adding spacer brackets available in 20mm hops of rotor size.
For frontal area / drag. Would you really gain much by going smaller? The caliper is still just as in the wind.
You've got an extra rotor frontal of about 2mm thick x 20mm deep. 40mm sq.
I'd rather have the better braking !
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [UK Gearmuncher]
[ In reply to ]
UK Gearmuncher wrote:
I've started to see the odd 120mm disc rotor pop up. In light of the fact that many events don't require a huge amount of braking (and in an effort to reduce frontal area as much as possible), I was wondering if a push to smaller rotors is worthwhile or would even fit the new crop of tri bikes ?I think you should go in the opposite direction...make it as LARGE as possible...and then, maybe integrate it into the wheel rim?? A couple of side benefits would be reducing the number of spokes needed and also reducing the mass and aero drag of the hub ;-)
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [Tom A.]
[ In reply to ]
Tom A. wrote:
UK Gearmuncher wrote:
I've started to see the odd 120mm disc rotor pop up. In light of the fact that many events don't require a huge amount of braking (and in an effort to reduce frontal area as much as possible), I was wondering if a push to smaller rotors is worthwhile or would even fit the new crop of tri bikes ?I think you should go in the opposite direction...make it as LARGE as possible...and then, maybe integrate it into the wheel rim?? A couple of side benefits would be reducing the number of spokes needed and also reducing the mass and aero drag of the hub ;-)
Don't talk nonsense man - that'll never catch on. How would you be able to modulate it as your brakes would just be too powerful.
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [rmt]
[ In reply to ]
On a related note....
what are thoughts on the rotor size for tri bikes? 160mm front and back?
I'm 75kg, rolling courses.
what are thoughts on the rotor size for tri bikes? 160mm front and back?
I'm 75kg, rolling courses.
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [Darren325]
[ In reply to ]
You only need brakes at the end of a rolling course. So, rotors as small as possible.
Or maybe just rim brakes.
Or maybe just rim brakes.
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [jimatbeyond]
[ In reply to ]
But I need my whole bike to carbon so its as light weight and aerodynamic as possible and the braking performance of carbon rims in the wet is miserable. So rim brakes are a definite no. I just need to add alloy rotors, metal calipers and and a heavier frame to accommodate the breaking forces but in a way which reduces weight and minimizes aerodynamic losses even if it mean poor breaking performance.
And while we are at it I am going to whine about the bike industry forcing me to adopt new standards just to sell more bikes.
And while we are at it I am going to whine about the bike industry forcing me to adopt new standards just to sell more bikes.
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [UK Gearmuncher]
[ In reply to ]
140mm Ashima discs front and back on all wheelsets for my Litespeed T3 disc. Ashima 160mm on my Borealis Crestone Fat bike. More than enough braking on both bikes. I have rim brakes on my Blue AC1 and they work great too. Learning to brake on carbon rims in the rain is a skill you acquire over tie but it is not straight forward as discs are in the rain. I ride cabin rims on all my bikes.
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [Juanmoretime]
[ In reply to ]
The problem that comes from having to change your braking method (and braking earlier) is that when som t€@t in a pick up truck pulls out across your path, what you need is maximum (controlled) braking NOW. Not in 4 seconds time.
And that's something that discs give.
And that's something that discs give.
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [scott8888]
[ In reply to ]
I guess that’s why grand tours are no longer won with rim brake bikes and carbon wheels... because they don’t brake in the wet...
If rim brakes on carbon wheels are good enough to descend at 105 km/h for the pros, and they dominate the podium on all grand tours, which included rainy days in all three, they should be good for anyone. Add the pressure from the brands to move them to discs, and the winners staying on rims, and you have the answer as to which one is better.
If rim brakes on carbon wheels are good enough to descend at 105 km/h for the pros, and they dominate the podium on all grand tours, which included rainy days in all three, they should be good for anyone. Add the pressure from the brands to move them to discs, and the winners staying on rims, and you have the answer as to which one is better.
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [Tom A.]
[ In reply to ]
Tom A. wrote:
UK Gearmuncher wrote:
I've started to see the odd 120mm disc rotor pop up. In light of the fact that many events don't require a huge amount of braking (and in an effort to reduce frontal area as much as possible), I was wondering if a push to smaller rotors is worthwhile or would even fit the new crop of tri bikes ?I think you should go in the opposite direction...make it as LARGE as possible...and then, maybe integrate it into the wheel rim?? A couple of side benefits would be reducing the number of spokes needed and also reducing the mass and aero drag of the hub ;-)
i'm kinda with tom on this. if large rims are better, why are large rotors worse? and, yeah, we're still just scratching the surface on how to build wheels with rotors. and all that ignores braking ability. it might seem counter-intuitive but i would argue that, unless you're resort downhilling at a ski area, road bikes present more of a challenge to brakes than MTB does. that small rotor will heat up, boil the fluid, and voila, no brakes. unless you only race in florida.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [Slowman]
[ In reply to ]
Slowman wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
UK Gearmuncher wrote:
I've started to see the odd 120mm disc rotor pop up. In light of the fact that many events don't require a huge amount of braking (and in an effort to reduce frontal area as much as possible), I was wondering if a push to smaller rotors is worthwhile or would even fit the new crop of tri bikes ?I think you should go in the opposite direction...make it as LARGE as possible...and then, maybe integrate it into the wheel rim?? A couple of side benefits would be reducing the number of spokes needed and also reducing the mass and aero drag of the hub ;-)
i'm kinda with tom on this. if large rims are better, why are large rotors worse? and, yeah, we're still just scratching the surface on how to build wheels with rotors. and all that ignores braking ability. it might seem counter-intuitive but i would argue that, unless you're resort downhilling at a ski area, road bikes present more of a challenge to brakes than MTB does. that small rotor will heat up, boil the fluid, and voila, no brakes. unless you only race in florida.
I'm surprised this is even being discussed, considering the very smart people we have on this board.
The basic theory behind disc brakes and how to make them perform was ironed out in the auto racing arena years ago. It simply isn't a discussion point except for who makes the best for the least. I understand there are some big differences between a road bike and a race car, but the theory is the same.
The Miata that I race is using Wilwood 4 piston calipers, oversize vented and slotted rotors, stainless steel brake lines, and Redline RL-600 DOT 4 brake fluid, and the rotors on the front are about 30% larger then on the front.
Disc brakes will fade for only 1 reason - heat build up. The rotor will change size, the caliber will expand, the pads will get soft, and the brake fluid will boil. Once any of that happens you are done for the day. The rotor will not come back completely, the pads will become work hardened, and the brake fluid will start to break down chemically. You always want more braking power and cooling capability then you will need, because once either is exceeded you are done for the day and rebuilding things.
Bikes are designed from the manufacturer will all that in mind. The weight and aerodynamics penalties for bigger than you need are minuscule to the safety and performance factor. I would never consider changing to a smaller size of the rotor on any bike. The material/design of the rotor and pads - sure, but those rotors are that size for a reason.
"...the street finds its own uses for things"
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [AutomaticJack]
[ In reply to ]
AutomaticJack wrote:
Bikes are designed from the manufacturer will all that in mind.weeellllll.... ideally. yes. but i'm not sure road bike makers have thought it all thru. SRAM did a lot of testing, years ago, when it first came out with hydraulic road. remember, SRAM bought avid, and one good thing about SRAM's acquisitions, it generally does not simply buy product categories, but the brains behind them (most notably when it bought sachs-huret). avid's brainpower really pushed this.
all of which is to say that SRAM has thought it thru. but, have the bike makers all thought it thru? i'm not sure. one thing about tri bikes, we like to fair things, and if we fair the rotors and calipers do we inhibit the cooling? maybe that's not a big deal in tri bikes, because we aren't hard core descending a lot of twisty mountains, but now that we must have our road bikes be equally aero, it will be interesting to see if we mess up all that good work SRAM, campy and shimano have done on disc brake systems by inhibiting the airflow that cools the systems.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [AutomaticJack]
[ In reply to ]
AutomaticJack wrote:
Bikes are designed from the manufacturer will all that in mind. The weight and aerodynamics penalties for bigger than you need are minuscule to the safety and performance factor. I would never consider changing to a smaller size of the rotor on any bike. The material/design of the rotor and pads - sure, but those rotors are that size for a reason.Uh, I think you highly overestimate the amount of thought that goes into this by a bike manufacturer. Many/most bike manufacturers are actually just marketing companies that outsource almost everything they 'make' (in other words, they essentially make nothing).
Also, auto and auto racing brakes are not super applicable here.
Sure, clearly disc brakes work for cars and for bikes too. But how well do they work on extended very steep descents with big heavy riders that need to slow down a lot on every turn and straight and where engine braking is unavailable? That is where you can get almost any bicycle disc brake currently made to fail, and fail catastrophically. I am no auto racing expert, but I don't think there is much that is comparable to that kind of brake load in racing.
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Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [DarkSpeedWorks]
[ In reply to ]
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
AutomaticJack wrote:
Bikes are designed from the manufacturer will all that in mind. The weight and aerodynamics penalties for bigger than you need are minuscule to the safety and performance factor. I would never consider changing to a smaller size of the rotor on any bike. The material/design of the rotor and pads - sure, but those rotors are that size for a reason.Uh, I think you highly overestimate the amount of thought that goes into this by a bike manufacturer. Many/most bike manufacturers are actually just marketing companies that outsource almost everything they 'make' (in other words, they essentially make nothing).
Also, auto and auto racing brakes are not super applicable here.
Sure, clearly disc brakes work for cars and for bikes too. But how well do they work on extended very steep descents with big heavy riders that need to slow down a lot on every turn and straight and where engine braking is unavailable? That is where you can get almost any bicycle disc brake currently made to fail, and fail catastrophically. I am no auto racing expert, but I don't think there is much that is comparable to that kind of brake load in racing.
This all makes a good case for REALLY big rotors for this use case.
For example, I've been running hydraulic calipers and 622mm diameter rotors for the last 4 years on my road bike. I liked it so much that early this year I installed a similar setup on a CX/Gravel bike. I've never experienced any sort of heat induced fade...and in fact, the only reason I've had to bleed them in that time frame is because I broke a handlebar that had internal hose routing and that required disconnecting the hoses. It's quite amazing how "set and forget" (aside from occasional pad adjustments and replacements) this setup is...not to mention the power and modulation when paired with an excellent pad and rotor combination :-)
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [DarkSpeedWorks]
[ In reply to ]
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Sure, clearly disc brakes work for cars and for bikes too. But how well do they work on extended very steep descents with big heavy riders that need to slow down a lot on every turn and straight and where engine braking is unavailable? That is where you can get almost any bicycle disc brake currently made to fail, and fail catastrophically. I am no auto racing expert, but I don't think there is much that is comparable to that kind of brake load in racing.If you are braking like that on any vehicle, especially a bike, you are doing it wrong. I suppose a very technical mountain pass decent might approach what you are describing, but even that would have cooling periods. Brake hard into the corner, release and go, then brake hard again and release. I think you are suggesting dragging the brakes. That is a big no no with any braking system. Don't do that. Also, on a bike, braking stands the bike up. Never brake in the corner.
I race single person road rally. I will spend somewhere between 2 and 4 minutes on the course. On a car, unlike a bike, you brake as late as you can going into the turn, and brake as long as you are turning. That shifts the weight to the front end and compresses the suspension, which is needed to turn at .85 g's. I am either braking full force, accelerating as hard as the car will go, or doing both at the same time, running 3 pedals with 2 feet. My tires and rims will be too hot to touch, and my brakes will never fade. It is routinely well over 120 degrees on the tarmac and top speed on the course might be 40 mph.
I ride a Specialized Roubaix, 160 on the front/140 on the rear using the fancy blacked out Durace rotors, and the standard metallic pads. I weigh nearly 180 lbs, so I'm no light weight, and I ride some very technical routes very aggressively for fun. Things wear out on me pretty quickly, but until they do the brakes are fool proof - I squeeze, they stop.
"...the street finds its own uses for things"
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [Slowman]
[ In reply to ]
Slowman wrote:
AutomaticJack wrote:
Bikes are designed from the manufacturer will all that in mind.weeellllll.... ideally. yes. but i'm not sure road bike makers have thought it all thru. SRAM did a lot of testing, years ago, when it first came out with hydraulic road. remember, SRAM bought avid, and one good thing about SRAM's acquisitions, it generally does not simply buy product categories, but the brains behind them (most notably when it bought sachs-huret). avid's brainpower really pushed this.
all of which is to say that SRAM has thought it thru. but, have the bike makers all thought it thru? i'm not sure. one thing about tri bikes, we like to fair things, and if we fair the rotors and calipers do we inhibit the cooling? maybe that's not a big deal in tri bikes, because we aren't hard core descending a lot of twisty mountains, but now that we must have our road bikes be equally aero, it will be interesting to see if we mess up all that good work SRAM, campy and shimano have done on disc brake systems by inhibiting the airflow that cools the systems.
You would know better than me, but I would find it hard to believe that an engineering company like Specialized didn't at least look at the system, run some very easy number, and multiply by 150% for safety.
"...the street finds its own uses for things"
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [AutomaticJack]
[ In reply to ]
AutomaticJack wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Sure, clearly disc brakes work for cars and for bikes too. But how well do they work on extended very steep descents with big heavy riders that need to slow down a lot on every turn and straight and where engine braking is unavailable? That is where you can get almost any bicycle disc brake currently made to fail, and fail catastrophically. I am no auto racing expert, but I don't think there is much that is comparable to that kind of brake load in racing.If you are braking like that on any vehicle, especially a bike, you are doing it wrong. I suppose a very technical mountain pass decent might approach what you are describing, but even that would have cooling periods. Brake hard into the corner, release and go, then brake hard again and release. I think you are suggesting dragging the brakes. That is a big no no with any braking system. Don't do that. Also, on a bike, braking stands the bike up. Never brake in the corner.
I race single person road rally. I will spend somewhere between 2 and 4 minutes on the course. On a car, unlike a bike, you brake as late as you can going into the turn, and brake as long as you are turning. That shifts the weight to the front end and compresses the suspension, which is needed to turn at .85 g's. I am either braking full force, accelerating as hard as the car will go, or doing both at the same time, running 3 pedals with 2 feet. My tires and rims will be too hot to touch, and my brakes will never fade. It is routinely well over 120 degrees on the tarmac and top speed on the course might be 40 mph.
I ride a Specialized Roubaix, 160 on the front/140 on the rear using the fancy blacked out Durace rotors, and the standard metallic pads. I weigh nearly 180 lbs, so I'm no light weight, and I ride some very technical routes very aggressively for fun. Things wear out on me pretty quickly, but until they do the brakes are fool proof - I squeeze, they stop.
I typically "trail brake" with the rear brake only into at least the apex of a tight downhill turn (i.e. switchback) for the same reason of keeping the front load force high while turning that you describe above.
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [AutomaticJack]
[ In reply to ]
AutomaticJack wrote:
If you are braking like that on any vehicle, especially a bike, you are doing it wrong. I suppose a very technical mountain pass decent might approach what you are describing, but even that would have cooling periods. Brake hard into the corner, release and go, then brake hard again and release. I think you are suggesting dragging the brakes. That is a big no no with any braking system. Don't do that. Also, on a bike, braking stands the bike up. Never brake in the corner.Of course. But I personally NEVER operate a bike that way. But if you're a manufacturer with a concern about engineering in a solid safety factor and about liability, you MUST design with that scenario in mind.
Quote:
I race single person road rally. I will spend somewhere between 2 and 4 minutes on the course. On a car, unlike a bike, you brake as late as you can going into the turn, and brake as long as you are turning. That shifts the weight to the front end and compresses the suspension, which is needed to turn at .85 g's. I am either braking full force, accelerating as hard as the car will go, or doing both at the same time, running 3 pedals with 2 feet. My tires and rims will be too hot to touch, and my brakes will never fade. It is routinely well over 120 degrees on the tarmac and top speed on the course might be 40 mph.Again, I am no rally expert but flat or rolling courses simply do not compare to the energy dissipation needed on extended downhills. Also, unless there is something about auto racing that I am not familiar with, as soon as you take your foot off the gas in an internal combustion engine auto, engine braking kicks in. THAT is a huge amount of energy that is dissipated by the engine that the brakes don't have to deal with.
Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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Last edited by:
DarkSpeedWorks: Dec 4, 20 12:43
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [Slowman]
[ In reply to ]
Slowman wrote:
all of which is to say that SRAM has thought it thru. but, have the bike makers all thought it thru? i'm not sure. one thing about tri bikes, we like to fair things, and if we fair the rotors and calipers do we inhibit the cooling? maybe that's not a big deal in tri bikes, because we aren't hard core descending a lot of twisty mountains, but now that we must have our road bikes be equally aero, it will be interesting to see if we mess up all that good work SRAM, campy and shimano have done on disc brake systems by inhibiting the airflow that cools the systems.You see...that's where 622mm diameter rotors are the winner. By going that big, you reduce the heat issues...so much so, that you can even integrate and fully fair the brake caliper completely into the fork or frame with no issues whatsoever! Best aero, light weight, and with good brake design and good choices on pad and rotor material, all the best braking...but, as you say, TT/Tri bikes might not be needing the ultimate in braking performance, but if you can get it and ALSO have those other advantages, why not?? ;-)
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [Tom A.]
[ In reply to ]
Tom A. wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
AutomaticJack wrote:
Bikes are designed from the manufacturer will all that in mind. The weight and aerodynamics penalties for bigger than you need are minuscule to the safety and performance factor. I would never consider changing to a smaller size of the rotor on any bike. The material/design of the rotor and pads - sure, but those rotors are that size for a reason.Uh, I think you highly overestimate the amount of thought that goes into this by a bike manufacturer. Many/most bike manufacturers are actually just marketing companies that outsource almost everything they 'make' (in other words, they essentially make nothing).
Also, auto and auto racing brakes are not super applicable here.
Sure, clearly disc brakes work for cars and for bikes too. But how well do they work on extended very steep descents with big heavy riders that need to slow down a lot on every turn and straight and where engine braking is unavailable? That is where you can get almost any bicycle disc brake currently made to fail, and fail catastrophically. I am no auto racing expert, but I don't think there is much that is comparable to that kind of brake load in racing.
This all makes a good case for REALLY big rotors for this use case.
For example, I've been running hydraulic calipers and 622mm diameter rotors for the last 4 years on my road bike. I liked it so much that early this year I installed a similar setup on a CX/Gravel bike. I've never experienced any sort of heat induced fade...and in fact, the only reason I've had to bleed them in that time frame is because I broke a handlebar that had internal hose routing and that required disconnecting the hoses. It's quite amazing how "set and forget" (aside from occasional pad adjustments and replacements) this setup is...not to mention the power and modulation when paired with an excellent pad and rotor combination :-)
No argument from me.
For road, rim brakes all the way.
Hydraulic, well ... maybe. But I have cable-actuated gen2 eebrakes with salmon pads on AL braking surfaces, so I am pretty happy in wet and in dry.
However, these works of art are kinda calling to me ...
Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [Tom A.]
[ In reply to ]
Tom A. wrote:
UK Gearmuncher wrote:
I've started to see the odd 120mm disc rotor pop up. In light of the fact that many events don't require a huge amount of braking (and in an effort to reduce frontal area as much as possible), I was wondering if a push to smaller rotors is worthwhile or would even fit the new crop of tri bikes ?I think you should go in the opposite direction...make it as LARGE as possible...and then, maybe integrate it into the wheel rim?? A couple of side benefits would be reducing the number of spokes needed and also reducing the mass and aero drag of the hub ;-)
one day, you'll reply with this and someone will bite and ask you to explain how that's possible. one day.
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [jkhayc]
[ In reply to ]
jkhayc wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
UK Gearmuncher wrote:
I've started to see the odd 120mm disc rotor pop up. In light of the fact that many events don't require a huge amount of braking (and in an effort to reduce frontal area as much as possible), I was wondering if a push to smaller rotors is worthwhile or would even fit the new crop of tri bikes ?I think you should go in the opposite direction...make it as LARGE as possible...and then, maybe integrate it into the wheel rim?? A couple of side benefits would be reducing the number of spokes needed and also reducing the mass and aero drag of the hub ;-)
one day, you'll reply with this and someone will bite and ask you to explain how that's possible. one day.
I predict there will be a day where rim brakes come back for certain applications...but much like the MTB wheel size progression of 26"->29er and back almost to 26" (less than 1/2" difference on radius) with 650B (for certain applications), it'll be done in such a way that it's incompatible with all previous bikes.
That's just what fashion industries do :-)
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Re: How small a disc rotor can most modern bikes handle ? [UK Gearmuncher]
[ In reply to ]
It'll probably be such old tech by the time I get around to a disc bike that it'll all be ironed out... (pink...ish)
If I were jumping in right now... the Revolver shield/fairing thing looks pretty slick and you're not compromising by going to a really small disc.
My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
If I were jumping in right now... the Revolver shield/fairing thing looks pretty slick and you're not compromising by going to a really small disc.
My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com