Cheers, matey! Keep the website up I had a browse and really enjoyed your stuff on insomnia. Struggled with it since I was a kid, always hyperactive.. Might actually make some progress towards fixing it now

One thing i had wished i had known about early, was HRV. I believe it would have help prevented me from digging a hole than i can still not get out of.

Bringing this one back up again. I was diagnosed with adrenal fatigue recently and am at somewhat of a loss as to what to do (or not do) training-wise. The dr I'm seeing is conveniently not on any insurance so I'm paying my right arm to see her, but am glad I did as the bloodwork she ordered shows a few things pretty far off whereas my GP says I'm perfectly healthy. My DHEA is very low (43 - dr wants it at 250-300), CRP (inflammation) is very high - 7.8 (normal range is 0-3, dr wants it closer to 0). My T3 is a bit low and TSH doubled in the last 2 months from 1.4 to 2.8 - so by "normal" standards, no issue with TSH however looking at the T3/T4 can see issue and dr wants TSH closer to 1.

I went back today to discuss these results and got several supplements and rx - adrenatone, adreno distress guard, calcium w/ magnesium, DHEA 25mg, multi vitamin with antioxidants and omega 3s, vitamin d 5000iu, wobenzyme (anti-inflammatory), and T3 5mcg SR.

I go back next week to discuss nutrition (she is a "nutritional wellness" doctor - MD and used to be in internal medicine and took interest in this field over the last 10 years or so) which I'm looking forward to, and exercise. I'm apparently supposed to meet with their partner to learn a 20 minute "HCG boosting" workout - pretty much HIIT or tabata on a treadmill which starts with 220-age as your max HR. So I'm not impressed there because I can blow 220-my age out of the water without really trying. I am going to give them a call tomorrow to tell them I'm not really interested in learning their workout protocol as I want to continue this hobby of mine in some shape or form -not give it up forever to instead do their 20 minute workout three time a week. I also don't want to give them that HR show and do a tough workout next week if I'm theoretically trying to rest/recover.

Kind of off track track there, but I'm looking for some guidance on how to know when to start coming back and when I'm pushing it too hard. My symptoms never came on in one acute attack - I've just said for the past year plus that I "lack resiliency." I don't recover well and cannot for the life of me lose weight. Upping the workouts and cutting the calories always used to work and over the past 1-2 years when I do that I may lose 1-2 lbs and then proceed to gain 3 back. I've lost 3 lbs of muscle and gained 5 lbs of fat in the past 1.5 years (gotta love DXA and it's sometimes insulting detail).

I ran a half-ass marathon in February (ie was supposed to be for fun but sucked every ounce of my soul out of my body) and haven't been anywhere near full capacity since then. I had the flu at Christmas and have had an awful time with asthma and allergies this year. So while I may have had a week or two here or there where my running was really going well, I'd say I've been sub par since the fall, if not longer.

I'm signed up for IMFL and have told myself I can sit on my butt until early June and pick up then if need be. The only thing is I'm having a hard time figuring out if I need to sit on my butt and do absolutely nothing, and if so, for how long, or if I should work on just doing super light workouts for the next month or so. I took 5 days off last week and my body started to get pretty upset by about day 3 or 4.

I know so much is by feel but I've been subpar for so long, it is hard now to distinguish problematic from my new normal, if that makes sense. The weight I've gained is killing me but working out more/eating less isn't quite the answer for me right now like it had been in the past.

Long post - long way of asking if anyone has had similar hormonal imbalance issues and how long after supplementing did you start to get back at it?

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Kathleen
http://kcwoodhead.blogspot.com/

You are all pushing to your limits way too often. It's a huge mistake that almost all people make in training. I know...I made the same mistake for many years in my youth.
You should be training either very slow and long, or very fast and short. Nothing in between. And let me further state that when I say "very"...I mean VERY fast of VERY long.
You should be riding 100 miles while breathing through your nose only, or riding up hills gasping for air. Nothing in between except on race day.

Sounds like you need thyroid help.
I had issues back in 2010-2011. Took maybe 2 years to fully work out.
I do better with a really low tsh.
I like taking Armour Thyroid- synthetic T3 and T4 did nothing for me.

Self Coaching is effective if you know what your doing. There are plenty of people roaming around with coaching licenses that don't know crap about the physiological responses to exercise, anatomy, or anything that would help them develop a decent training plan. Many so called coaches just throw together a mix of existing training plans and call it customized. They also bank on the fact that with many athletes they can throw shit at a wall and it will work because the athlete is starting at a lower training point.

Hey,

re your adrenal fatigue - I suggest you give this a read: http://www.reverse-therapy.com/

also see here with regard to us, athletes:

http://www.annahemmings.com/page28.asp

Both of these helped me massively when AFS was considered during my overtraining bout. With training, I'd take a couple of months off, I doubt you'd want to do much. However, always remember that physically you are basically fine (unless med tests have shown some sort of irregularity that needs to be addressed first, excluding hormones), so you could always try gentle sessions and see how your body responds. The important bit is to be true to yourself - if your HR is through the roof you get up and pack up. I used to watch my sweat rate - any abnormal sweat patterns (like too soon or too little) would signal me to stop training, stretch and go the hell home.

The old self comes back, it just takes some time. Good luck!

How are things going for you ?

Thank you for asking! And I apologize for not yet responding to your PM - I was thinking Friday I needed to do that as I'm just coming up with more questions than answers.

I still "feel" okay - I never had a huge crash of sorts that left me here - just kind of prodding more into my weight gain and lack of ability to recover. I've had 2 follow-ups with the nutritional medicine MD and also just went to see an endocrinologist.

The nutritional medicine MD is the one who ran enough labs to see I am having trouble but also has given me 10 supplements and 1 rx. I already know that isn't going to last super long...just not what I'm 100% about - I think some are worthwhile and will kind of see as I go along, but I don't want to spend my days popping pill after pill after pill - whether rx or supplement. She has had me take wheat out of my diet - said it isn't necessarily forever, but that it can be tough on the adrenal system. I'm good with that. My 2 biggest issues/questions from that dr are with diet and exercise - would love feedback from anyone on both.
1. Working out - I assumed I'd get back at it doing only Z2 or lower workouts - 30-60 minutes at a time mostly likely, and see how things go. She says duration, not heart rate, is what matters and has suggested I do their prescribed "hgh boosting" interval workout three times a week - 20 minutes each. Oh, and make sure no carbs for 2 hours after. I explained I'm not looking for the easy way to boost hgh.....that I doubt I'll ever really be interested in just working out 60 minutes total a week - that my running group is my social/therapeutic time, etc. So basically I am torn between short and high heart rate or a little longer and super low (for me - this will probably end up being about a 13-14 min mile "running" for a while). I was in a somewhat similar situation 5 years ago and after a month off, I did only low heart rate work for about 6 weeks and then slowly built from there and it seemed to work well.

2. Diet - she has me basically paleo which is fine. But she said no carbs before lunch and to limit my carbs to 25g/meal - so basically 50/day. Thought is the less insulin spikes, the less taxing on the system. I can see that point, but I've also been reading lately that low carb can do a number on some women's hormone/adrenal system which is ironic. I keep reading too much - and feel dumber each time I do because everything just contradicts everything else. So any thoughts on that part?

My other biggest issue is people saying "just go by how you feel"...hmmmm....I respond that I must not be very good at that because that is how I got myself in this little hole I'm in right now :-)

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Kathleen
http://kcwoodhead.blogspot.com/

I'm in the middle of reading Maffetone's Big Book of Endurance Training and Racing and am impressed on how much he talks about adrenal function/dysfunction. He also relates lack of aerobic base to several fagitue/adrenal-related issues. The more I read, the more it all makes sense.

If anyone is having adrenal issues, I'd highly recommend getting a copy of this book - I got it on kindle yesterday and have flipped through a good portion of it. Even if you don't buy into the whole MAF plan, I think it worth a read - it will be enlightening at the least.

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Kathleen
http://kcwoodhead.blogspot.com/

http://www.philmaffetone.com/the-overtraining-syndrome

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Kathleen
http://kcwoodhead.blogspot.com/

KWTriGrl, looks like your from Texas too. I saw on your blog a pic from Enchanted Rock. I've raced up that rock a couple of times.

I rarely post these days but do read here. Overtraining should not be taken lightly. I got really sick from it 3 years ago, and because I did not stop training, it dragged on for far too long. Honestly, I find that it is still there lurking in the background ready to slap me down when I start pushing too hard. My kids will say "You overdid it again, mom" when I go too long and hard and end up physically spent with no gas left in the tank. My little reality checkers.

I wrote about what happened to me, and I frequently have had athletes contact me via email asking me how I got over it. The answer is rest. Eat every 2 hours. They scoff at this, and say "What else did you do? Did you change your diet? Go paleo? Start yoga? What is the magic cure??" They want me to tell them anything BUT to stop training. There is no magic cure. Just stop training. FInd something else to fill your time. For me it was surfing once I was well enough. I also had to separate myself from everything triathlon for a time. I went through my house and tossed all my magazines, logged off all the forums, FB pages and websites and basically stopped reading my friends training logs because it pissed me off that I couldn't do it. Once I was somewhat recovered, I picked up Born To Run and basically changed how I view running. I took off my watch, left my GPS at home and just ran for the sheer joy of it. As I got well, I upped my mileage but never my intensity. I started trail running. I started seeing everything around me and would stop to take in a gorgeous view, whereas while training for triathlon I never stopped because I was on a mission. Oh, and I also got back on my mountain bike and let my TT bike gather dust. For some reason riding it always what brings on a reactive hypoglycemic event. Probably because I love riding and love going fast even more. The mountain bike made me slow down.

I want to race again, but not this year. Maybe next. I do some running races and will probably start out with an offroad duathlon when I go into endurance again. Right now, to get my fix I surf competitively. I am almost 50 and compete against girls in their teens and 20's. Old girls rule.

The bottom line is: If you don't want to miss out on 3-4 years of racing like I have, take a few months off. It may drive you up the wall, but it is worth it in the long run.

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Jody

“The wild is the approaching dark mass of an outside set, and it is the unseen but very real possibility of moving shapes in the water close around us”~ Drew Kampion, The Way of the Surfer
http://andbabymakes6.com/...ertraining-syndrome/

was just alerted to this post. first thing you need to do is take some time off. There's a reason it's a "syndrome"... no one really knows what it is or what causes it we can only throw educated guesses at it. You aren't going to get better continuing on with the stresses that caused it. With the down time take a look at work/sleep/emotional/dietary history. What do those tell you.

Rather than HIIT workouts get in the gym and lift some weights. I would caution against doing anything aerobic in nature till you at least have a better idea as to what earned you the hole in the first place. You are going to need to accept the weight gain (crazy hard, i know) that's part of the body's response process to what you've inflicted it with. Did you have a cortisol test performed?

In a lot of cases what can happen is your HPA axis (hypothalamus, pituitary, adrenal) is knocked off its normal feedback loop. It's best to attempt to correct it thru diet and stress reduction. There are chemical measures that can right that ship, but better to use them only when really necessary (i.e. initial efforts prove unsuccessful).

Peruse through my blog (link in sig) I've been through all of this and just now coming out of it. Also have guided others out of it as well.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Thanks for your input! I had read a few of your posts about it.

I agree on the HIIT stuff - I threw that out the window because the idea just didn't feel right. I am fairly confident I fit squarely into Maffetone's description of not being aerobically fit (as for what got me in this hole). I'm rarely in zone 2 on my runs and running is all I've really done over the past year plus (not much swimming biking - climbed Kili for my "fun" last year vs doing any big races). I started running with gazelles in Austin last June and that probably just meant that much more time spent blowing out my heart rate.

I also feel like I fit in Maffetone's "stage 2" of overtraining based on my symptoms but after I had a corthrosyn stim test Friday it is possible I'm only even in stage 1. I was never worried I'd gotten to the point where I wasn't making cortisol - just assumed I was making too much (more from the weight gain and low DHEA than anything else). The stim test went from 12 to 32 according to my dr and she said that is great. I'm not studied up enough on the test to know how great that really is, but I think it is still in the realm of normal.

The endo switched me from T3 to the lowest dose of T4 (synthroid) yesterday and is going to test my thyroid and DHEA again in 6 weeks. I'm still taking 25mg DHEA as well.

One of the interesting things from all of this is I had a similar bout in fall 2008 - I ran the st george marathon and 2 weeks later ran a 5k where my first mile was 7:xx and the next two were 9-10:xx with a heart rate nearing 200. I knew something was off but didn't know what. I assumed it was overtraining then and treated it as such - with as much info as I had at the time. I took a month basically off where I just walked and then did about 6-8 weeks of zone 2 and lower work through the winter. I think my cortisol was tested but if I recall just a one-time blood test so not a real picture into everything. They did a ct scan of my adrenals and they looked fine too - but I also wasn't expecting much to not "look" okay there. Long story short I was eventually diagnosed with POTS - an autonomic nervous system disorder. I went on to PR at CDA and FL in 2009 without much trouble.

The more reading I've done this time around makes me curious as it seems there is a link between adrenal issues and orthostatic intolerances/autonomic nervous system disorders. I never had the true symptoms of POTS as most people can't get out of bed without fainting - my only really noticeable symptoms were feeling half crappy and my heart rate was through the roof. The one huge difference between then and now though is the weight (about 20 lbs). I am having a hard time reconciling the two. I never had DHEA tested the first time around either so I guess I will never know for sure if it was similar things going on or not.

Last week I did right at 3 hours total across 4 workouts (2 runs, 1 swim, 1 ride) all in zone 2 or lower and so far seen no worse for the wear - resting heart rate has stayed low and steady and I feel okay. I suppose my plan is to "proceed with caution" - caution in knowing it might not work at all and I may end up in a deeper hole, but also knowing so far it has been okay. I suppose my blood tests in 6 weeks will be helpful too - I may take this time to go with what I think i need to do and see how it all goes. The stim test was also last Friday and I'd already done 3 workouts that week leading into the test so i feel like maybe my body is handling it okay? Or I may just be completely fooling myself as well.

I had gone back and forth on weights - the pessimistic side of me said "don't bother if I can't build muscle right now anyway" but that isn't a great excuse ;-) I had been doing boot camp style workouts for a decent period of time but am staying away from those for a long time.

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Kathleen
http://kcwoodhead.blogspot.com/

Thanks for the response - I'm reading your blog now. I have been back and forth on kind of being done with this lifestyle (at least for a while) for the past few years. I took last year "off" and climbed Mt. Kili instead of do an ironman. I think I did one super sprint tri and that was it. I went a good 9-10 months with no swimming or biking and have to admit it was pretty nice. I do enjoy other things - especially after moving back to Austin from Houston...in Houston triathlon was about all I had going on - here in Austin I feel like the possibilities are endless. I'm signed up for IMFL this year and really do want that to be my last one for a while. I would, however, like to keep up the running because it is definitely one of my social outlets. But I realize it also may not always be the healthiest - or that I should definitely look into the whole "seasonality" of it all vs training year-round.

I guess that is my long-winded way of saying I am starting to realize that the endurance stuff isn't great for everyone - some people will be able to do it forever with no problem, but others (me included), probably aren't as well-suited for it and would be better off not trying to fight it. That being said I do want IMFL to happen this year but am willing to play it by ear as I go along - I am fairly confident I will pull the cord when/if necessary although I realize I do have the possibility of waiting a little too long thus pushing recovery out that much further. I guess I'm willing to risk that for now since I am kind of seeing/wanting a shift in my activities after IMFL anyway. I do want IMFL to be a good experience so racing sick or unprepared is no way to go into it either so I'm willing to put it off if necessary, but would rather things just go as planned (type a?).

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Kathleen
http://kcwoodhead.blogspot.com/

I hear you. I went back and forth about it for a long time. For me it was really hard to give up doing what I loved. I felt like I was throwing in the towel and I am NOT a quitter. I am very hard headed and determined. I have 4 kids, and it was my "me" time. It took me a good year to realize that, for some reason, it was making me sick whereas my friends were plowing right on through, doing IM events, marathons and having very few issues. I think it really dawned on me about 10 months after my collapse that what I was doing to my health was insane. My son said to me "Mom, so you shoot yourself in the foot once by accident. And it hurts. But instead of learning from it, you keep repeatedly shooting your foot again and again. On purpose. It makes no sense. If triathlon makes you sick, stop." So I did. Finally. I pretty much stopped everything but running and surfing. Running I did no more than 15-20 miles a week, sometimes under 10. A year later I was doing much better.

Austin is a great place to live. So much to do in the hill country. You have some great mountain biking trails around there that would be fun when you are feeling better. Some fun duathlons too. Mt. Kili sounds like a great experience and I would have chosen that over an IM too. I totally understand about IMFL. I was supposed to do my first 70.3 2 weeks after I got sick (70.3 Galveston) and it just killed me to miss it. I feel like I have unfinished business and want to do it one day, but not until I am sure I won't make myself sick again. It really screwed me up good and mad life rough.

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Jody

“The wild is the approaching dark mass of an outside set, and it is the unseen but very real possibility of moving shapes in the water close around us”~ Drew Kampion, The Way of the Surfer
http://andbabymakes6.com/...ertraining-syndrome/

We sound very similar :-) I have friends all around me who do event after event after event and seem to just get faster and faster - to me they are getting away with murder! I guess I started to realize I was different after my first bout five years ago - since then I've been more cautious about what I do and have slowed down all around (# of races I do, etc), but have also enjoyed the rest of life so all isn't lost. I'm also hard headed and would definitely feel like I had unfinished business if I didn't do IMFL this year. I want to seal it with a nice bow and move on - deciding later on if I want to do more, but not have the pressing need or desire to do another ASAP.

If nothing else, this will be a huge exercise in patience, all the way around. Patience in sticking with nothing but low heart rate (if that keeps going okay), patience with waiting 6 freakin' weeks to see if the new synthroid makes a difference, patience with the weight I've put on...that is probably the worst part right now - I want to wear a sign on my head that says "medical issue - please pardon the weight." :-) Us type-A hard-headed people don't deal well with being told to sit back and wait.

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Kathleen
http://kcwoodhead.blogspot.com/

How's things going guys ?

hey, i have read many of your posts and now i would like to tell my story. Im cyclist and runner, 2012 was definitely my season, i race since 2010 in this discipline, but im in sport all of my life. in 2012 i made a huge progress on my body (my strenght and performance grew up a lot), so i was very good at racing and training. When i made this huge progress i started to train harder because i had limitless motivation. this period last about 3 months (hard training only 1 month-means 7-times per week, 3h per day). at the end of season everything was great, i felt a little bit tired but nothing serious. I had a week off. then i started to prepare my body for running part of season (at winter we have some sort of league, 13 races, every sunday). first 7 races i was really good, i could seen i made a really huge progress between cycling season, but at the 8 race i started to feel empty, without motivation,... i got some symptoms of OTS. but at first i didnt care so i continued to work hard. i ended up the league after 3 months with a great result, BUT here i was completely ovetrained. couldnt eat much, sleep only 4-5h, very unusual feelings, you know something is wrong. then when i started to cycle again i saw a drastical fall in performance at cycling (NOT IN RUNNING). beacuse i read a lot about these things i knew what im facing with. so i took 2 weeks off. here starts interesting part. after this pause i started slow with training. but after 1 week i saw that nothing changed. i was still overtrained. Most symptoms vanished but epmty legs stayed. At training i was quite good but in the race i was weak. i felt like im on training but i was on the race (lack of adrenaline?). this cycling season in 2013 was a complete disaster, not even a one good result. after that i didnt comete in winter league but instead i trained on bicycle 2-3 times per week. i thought i started to recover. i did so for 5 months beacuse in this time i had other activities not conected to sport. this period was completely without racing . now is season 2014, and guess, i think i still didnt recover. after some hard exercices i again felt empty legs (not tired or exhausted, just unable to reach high intensity between training). I feel the same if i train 3h or 15h per week, (my time when i reach the top of the climb is the same). i see that i have quite a lot of endurance but pure power is what is missing. on traing i simply cant reach that high intensity that gives you a progress, beacuse before that i start to feel empty. i eat and sleep normally. i tried many methods but until now i havent found a solution. i was thinking to take three months completely off, not even look at bicycle. but we all now that this is hard beacuse cycling is not just about racing, its a lifestyle that gives you motivation for many other things, and i dont even now if this would have any impact on everything. because those five months were quite "easy" and i think im still not completely recovered. what do you think guys, who beat completely overtraining syndrome? what would you advice? and thans for your help!

hey, sorry I've been slow on this. you've been through a tough passage, and it sure sounds familiar. All I can really say is hang in there, take it easy, and let time put you back together. That's all that worked for me. It really took a while. My initial collapse came on Easter Sunday of 2012; I was able to complete a race that fall, but not with any energy. By the next spring (one year later) I could actually train again, though I was still being cautious. Now it does seem to be 100% behind me.

How is everyone progressing?

I'm back up to running ~10 miles. Took about 2 months to go from 0 to 10 (after ~4 months of no running). I cannot complain about that. But I will say I'm slllooooow. Long run pace isn't that far off, but anything remotely resembling speedwork is a total joke. I swam occasionally through the summer and that seemed to go okay, including 2 very long (~3-3.5 miles) open water swims. No biking in a while - no real desire at this point. I'm signed up for a half marathon in January and possibly a 25k trail run - both knowing I have 0 chance at coming close to a PR. I may have finally stopped gaining weight, but losing it seems next to impossible still. Also doing a cross-training type program ~4 days a week now for ~:45/workout and am really enjoying that. My DHEA and free T are still very low - supplementing DHEA again and hoping a switch away from estrogen in birth control will allow the free T to come up. So overall, better, but certainly still nowhere close to where I was.

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Kathleen
http://kcwoodhead.blogspot.com/

Kathleen, 10 miles, that is awesome. Must be great to be back at it. Keep up the great work, but don't overdo it.