Hey man, I sympathize with you. I'm in the same boat. We're running a lot faster than a lot of folks, so we must be doing SOMETHING right. But God Almighty, what's up with the 33:00 10K's???? I can't even relate.

I'm going to bump your post until we get to the bottom of this...

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I only do cycling, but one thing I have noticed is that when I do intervals by myself I cannot motivate myself to do as well as I can when I do intervals with others. Now the difficulty is finding someone who is just a bit faster who's willing to train with you or a coach who will run and pace himself a bit faster than you think you can do. YMMV.

[reply]I did a running TT last night. Kind of unplanned but I wanted to PR my loop course so I let 'er buck on the second half. Pain was redefined for me. My heart rate hit 194 (I'm 27). It was agonizing and I was sore within an hour (that's never happened so quickly.)

I figure the best I was doing, when trying to max out the HR was probably not better than 6 min/mile. That was completely redlined. And that pace was only held for a couple of blocks. Avg pace was about 7 min/mile as I didn't start out terribly hard.

For you people who train at that pace, not only am I frusterated at you, but also in awe. Maybe my genetics are hurting me (I have tree trunk thighs) but what gives? I've only trained for 3 years or so. Marathon PR 3:32, 10k 41 min. I wonder what it must feel like to run 33 minutes for 10k. I know that it cannot hurt more than what I did last night. Is it just time training or should I try to trade parents???

Lehmkuhler[/reply]

You are missing one, maybe two, things. 1. Good ruuning form and/or 2. an adequate base. Most likely, both.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

I know what you mean.. I'm in awe...

Look at Eagleman results... I think for 2003... 1st year pro Ryan Grote ran something like 5:25 and took honors in the run.

That is just so damn fast.

....and the former is almost always a direct result of working on the latter.

There's no easy way to become a strong runner. You just have to run alot. The more you run the more efficient you'll become and the more your form will improve.

You'll also probablt find that most 33 minute 10Kers run a lot of their mileage at 7 minute pace or slower...they just run a lot of it.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Any spud (40+) to stud (34 on down) stories out there? Let's hear them!

Spill the beans people.

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<< You are missing one, maybe two, things. 1. Good ruuning form and/or 2. an adequate base. Most likely, both >>



Ah, c'mon Frank - that's not like you to let a big ol' meatball like that slip past ya!

He's missing a 3rd thing too. PC's, of course!!! ;-)



As for the actual question, I too am curious. I'm down to a "blazing fast" 39 10k hooray for me. That anybody (non-Kenyan or -Ethiopian) can go 32-33 is just mind boggling.

I can't blame my 'rents - I actually have reasonably good genetics for running, or at least I used to, back when I was a skinny f'er. I wasn't any faster running then, either.



BUMP.

Matt said: "You'll also probablt find that most 33 minute 10Kers run a lot of their mileage at 7 minute pace or slower...they just run a lot of it. "

Not that I am running that speed anymore, but when I was, most of training miles were done slower than 8 min per mile (5 min per K) and I still do so today. For top end speed, I would do 400 m intervals at around 70-80 seconds once per week. My lower legs cannot take those speeds anymore, so now I try to do fast downhill running as well as hit the track at least once a week during the "race season" and run mile repeats at 6 - 6:40 pace.

As Fleck said, the easiest way to run faster in racing is to run faster in training. I really believe that you have get your 400 m repeat speed down as low as possible and from there drop your mile, 5000, 10000 and marathon times. If you can't run fast for 400 m repeats, you'll never run fast over the other distances (ie someone who can't hold 90 seconds over 400 is not going to do 6:00 mile, in fact 6:20 will be a huge stretch). Its like being a 1:40 100m swimmer and harbouring thoughts of a sub 20 min 1500 time...it ain't gonna happen.

But before you do this, months and years of >8 min miles are really important unless you are a young 16 year old high school stud already running 400's at 49.9 seconds.

[reply]
....and the former is almost always a direct result of working on the latter.
.[/reply]

I disagree somewhat. Most people do not have natural good form (some do) so they do not lose their form while working on their base. I don't see the direct relationship except those with good form will lose their form if they don'thave an adequate base. Those bad form people will get better working on their base but will never get to elite status because I don't think good form comes naturally to these people. Most don't even have a clue as to what good form is or how to improve form. I know, I was one of them. Despite a great base my speed always sucked. I attributed it to not owning any fast twitch fibers. I now think it was simply do to crappy form, although I don't think I could have ever got to elite status I think I could have done a 2:40 marathon (as opposed to my PB of 3:15)

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Agree with MattSF that the typical training pace for someone running 33:00 min 10K is about 7:00 min mile. Tempo runs are at 6:00 or slightly faster and Vo2 max interval stuff at 5:00 -5:30 pace or a bit faster. It's pretty stright forward. You will find though that wether it is a triathlete or a straight runner, running these times, they typically have been running for years. The winning master's(40+) time for local 10K's is usually in the 33 min range.

The challenge that many triathletes face when they look at their run, and want to improve it dramatically, is that they have likley been given this nice balanced training program with equal amounts of swimming/cycling/running each week. The problem is, this is really not enough of an overload in any one sport to make big gains - the type of gains you would be looking at to drop your 10K time by say 5 minutes down to the sub 35 range. For that you will need a more significant investment in running time and frequency. The balanced program is good to get you started and keep you going for a couple of years. After that, I would suggest taking 4 -6 months chunks of time and rotate through each of the sports and do almost a total focus on that sport for that period of time. Do a bit of the other two to maintain a bit of fitness( you will actually be suprised with how much you will maintain) So take 6 months and just run. Many will be shocked at the gains they will make. Maybe even getting down below 35min for 10K

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I dunno about Spud or stud...but I quit my 15 (edit) year smoking habit aged 29 and started running a year later.

I ran my first 10K in January 2000, 44 minutes and change, broke 40 in August of that year, ran 37:15 a year later, 34:43 in April 2002, and 33:48 in September 02...still my PR....so I have plateaued I guess.

Marathon went from 3:38 to 2:37 in same time frame.

Weight went from 180lbs in 1999 to 133lbs last year.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

[reply]He's missing a 3rd thing too. PC's, of course!!! ;-)
[/reply]

I believe PC's work because they teach good form and train the muscles necessary to maintain that form. That is also the assessment of all the runners who have used them including A. Salazar (in his coaching practice). He asked why he was slow and others were fast. If he had asked how do I improve form then PC's is one way, as is POSE, and other training techniques. I think PC's is the most efficient way to get fast running, especially for a triathlete, but it is not the only way if someone doesn't have the cash for them.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Holy crap! Let's swap running resumes. I like yours alot better.

I've been in perfect health all my life. Started running more than fifteen years ago. Never gave it up for any significant length of time. Clocked a 42:00 way back. Now running around 41... can probably break 40:00 if I was chasing a drop-dead gorgeous chick, and some dude is chasing me with a gun.

And no I don't know that look women get when they want to have sex either.

I think I'll go eat a bonbon now to make me feel better.

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How tall are you? 133?!

Frank I run with a lot of pretty competitive runners and none of them have ever consciously worked on their "form"....efficent form generally comes from putting in lots of miles; your body adapts and muscles memorize how to run "fast and efficient".

Like any activity that you repeat again and again and again, you'll gradually get a little better at it without any conscious effort or tweaking. Over the course of many 20 milers your body will weed out inefficiencies and wasted motion and you'll become a more efficient runner.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

I quit my 25 year smoking habit aged 29

You started smoking at age 4?

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What a drag it is getting old. -- Stones

oooops thats a typo...14....but my parents were both heavy smokers so I guess I did get a good healthy dose of second hand fumes growing up.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Runners carry latent hostility towards swimmers. When we get on the land it is our chance to punish the bastards with that smooth graceful stroke. Anger and hostility breeds more speed.

Seriously, 1) find some hills or stairs and work them a couple times per week 2) intervals

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Matt,

That's awsome improvment. Keep up the great work.

I have actually been going backwards for many years. Ran my best 10K in my early 20's(31:00), but could still manage to break 35 at age 40, before a herniated disc in my back two years ago put an end to the running.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I learned to run fast first (in jr high and high school), and later turned that into distance speed. I was a half-miler in jr high, and then in high school went out for cross country as well as still doing the half in track. So I had a LOT of form work. I LEARNED how to run fast with good form. The half is one of those bastard distances -- too long for sprints, but you still get the sprint form work, and too short for real distance strategy, but you still get the distance work. I don't think I was genetically destined to be any great runner. Especially if you look at my parents...

But in any case, it wasn't until after I got into college that I started piling on miles on top of the form that I already had. It just translated very well. I had friends that could pick me out a mile away because of my running form.

So no, it's not just time training. And I'm not saying that you should go out and do a bunch of sprints tomorrow. But form work is never a bad idea.

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Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

https://triomultisport.com/
http://www.mjolnircycles.com/

As an older beginner triathlete I started running at age 43 now 47. Everything here is good advice. BIG hint graph your speed/ pace/ distance or any combination over time (read months) to see an improvement. Quality miles/km's are needed ........if it is fast work run fast ..........if it is long slow run long ........ there is no speed without a base, be patient you have a lifetime of getting faster ahead of you.

I agree with you. Good discussion here so far.

I especially enjoyed Fleck's encouragement. He took a wild guess and was spot-on in my case - not enough consistent stimulus to fully explore my potential as a runner. I suppose you reap what you sow. Doesn't that SUCK? Are there really no short-cuts to the top??

On a related note, I want to share with you a conversation I had with Sheila Taormina while on a group ride in Orlando last summer. She also picked up running late in life and managed to put down splits in the 34 range (stand-alone 10K's) within a few short years. She may have run faster, so I apologize if I'm wrong. Maybe Lew Kidder wants to chime in on this.

Anyway, that's phenomenal in my book. I mean the woman was a pure swimmer for Christ's sake. She said she was injured most of her early running career and was able to train 15-20 mi a week, if that. Even then, she was running much faster than me of LehmKuhler.

At the end of her career she was able to put in some decent mileage (30-40 mi per week) after she fixed her biomechanical deficiencies, and her 10K splits dropped like rocks. She became a rather formidable triathlon runner.

I wouldn't call hers a spud to stud story (she was never a spud). But damn! Some people just kick ass!

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I tend to think that form isn't the biggest part of the picture, though I obviously haven't been able to assemble that picture quite yet... Lots of people with far worse form than me are running past me with considerable ease.

I never really thought I person could learn to be fast at shorter distances. Seemed like you either had it or didn't... Maybe I should re-think that.

My wife on the other hand is fast. She's not fast at any long distance yet but maybe that will come with some more miles from what some of you are saying.

Thanks for the advice. I'm still bitter though.:)

Lehmkuhler

[reply]Frank I run with a lot of pretty competitive runners and none of them have ever consciously worked on their "form"....efficent form generally comes from putting in lots of miles; your body adapts and muscles memorize how to run "fast and efficient".

Like any activity that you repeat again and again and again, you'll gradually get a little better at it without any conscious effort or tweaking. Over the course of many 20 milers your body will weed out inefficiencies and wasted motion and you'll become a more efficient runner.[/reply]

I suspect that the pretty competitive runners you run with don't work on their form because they have naturally good form. However, if they were to work on their form I suspect they would get even better. I can assure you that those of us who do not have naturally good form will never become fast from simply running more. I had a couple of years way back where I averaged 70-90 miles per week at 7 minute miles and my improvement was minimal. We will get better, but not fast.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks