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How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly
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I stumbled upon this video last night.

https://www.youtube.com/...op&v=IF3kIvu7PZM


Mark Spitz wins gold (2;00.70) and Gary Hall Sr (2:02.86) who still posts around here takes silver.


No goggles, no tech suits, no modern underwaters, no swim caps, not sure if they did shave downs.


How fast do you guys think they could go today? By 2009 Phelps had taken things to 1:51.51, but I believe that was tech suit and after that Milak now has it in 2022 at 1:50.34


Here is world record progression if you wan to slot it in:


https://en.wikipedia.org/...200_metres_butterfly


Dev




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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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the one thing i noticed is much much sr looks like jr in that video.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
the one thing i noticed is much much sr looks like jr in that video.


By the time you started swimming I assume everyone was wearing goggles ? When did goggles become a thing? I see at the Montreal Olympics 1976 200 fly finals they had no goggles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW9sWiKeq40
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Slowman wrote:
the one thing i noticed is much much sr looks like jr in that video.


By the time you started swimming I assume everyone was wearing goggles ? When did goggles become a thing? I see at the Montreal Olympics 1976 200 fly finals they had no goggles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW9sWiKeq40

funny thing, monty and i were talking about this just a couple of weeks ago. we both come from a surf lifesaving background and when we were kids we never even thought to ocean swim with goggles. our eyes, and our feet, were a lot tougher then.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Slowman wrote:
the one thing i noticed is much much sr looks like jr in that video.


By the time you started swimming I assume everyone was wearing goggles ? When did goggles become a thing? I see at the Montreal Olympics 1976 200 fly finals they had no goggles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW9sWiKeq40

People wore goggles to workout in early 70's but not to race. Assuming I remember correctly, we didn't want the googles to leak or come off on the dive and goggles were used to prevent eye irritation -- a race was not long enough to matter. First goggles were all swedish style so not everyone like to wear them. I swam with guys who never wore them, they just kept their eyes shut most of the time - lol. We were definitely shaving down in the early 70's.
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:

I stumbled upon this video last night.
https://www.youtube.com/...op&v=IF3kIvu7PZM
Mark Spitz wins gold (2;00.70) and Gary Hall Sr (2:02.86) who still posts around here takes silver.
No goggles, no tech suits, no modern underwaters, no swim caps, not sure if they did shave downs.
How fast do you guys think they could go today? By 2009 Phelps had taken things to 1:51.51, but I believe that was tech suit and after that Milak now has it in 2022 at 1:50.34
Here is world record progression if you wan to slot it in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/...200_metres_butterfly
Dev


The thing I noticed is that it appears that Spitz was allowed to swim a little warm-down swim after the race, rather than having to get out right after race as they do now. Also, he did no big celebration, no climbing to sit on top of the lane rope. It seems that they were a little more reserved back then. :)

Also, regarding the goggles, I believe they were allowed in the '76 Games but since they were relatively new, prob not that many wore them. To this day, there are some swimmers who never wear goggles in races for fear of a "goggle malfunction".


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I became friends with the German guy in lane 2 Hans Fassnacht. He came over here right after those games and became an LA county lifeguard. Put on a bunch of weight but still could rock his recheck swims each year.

As to your question, I figure the pool was worth 2 seconds at least. The blocks were shorter, no track start. The lane lines were horrible, not the modern wave reducing ones we used today. Probably bad circulation, not like today where they turn it all off during races. And modern salt pools are a tiny bit faster, but that would be the least in the list of just pool things.

Then you have the suits, which we know are about a second or so, the hair(which they could have shaved their heads).

Then the biggest thing would be the underwaters, which has to be at least a second a 100. You can see where they come up on the dive vs today, and there is a whole body length or more in the same time frame. That is also the blocks contributing, but none the less a big disadvantage.

So when you add it all up, not a whole lot different from today, a second or two on just the human performance front. But of course Spitz did have that one huge advantage, that mustache, was proven to give him extra O2 and a hydrodynamic advantage. Just ask the Russians....
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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what do you think Spitz's 2:00.7 converts to in today's tech suits, under waters and with Swim cap? I assume goggles or none did not slow these guys down.
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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What are the chances you can track down Gary Hall Sr and get him to comment on this this race in this thread (or a front page interview with him) ?
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
what do you think Spitz's 2:00.7 converts to in today's tech suits, under waters and with Swim cap? I assume goggles or none did not slow these guys down.

One thing to consider: not everyone can do underwaters really well. So we’d really be guessing at how elk he’d master that skill.

But one piece of data to consider: there a verified story (by GH Sr no less) of Spitz going a 49 low in a 100 yard fly in practice. This interesting because the flyers of today are going 47s/48s in practice. Comparing Practice to practice times are a little more of an even playing field. So if you’re looking for a “Time Machine” answer where you transport 1972 Spitz to today, give him a techsuit etc, my guess is he’d come in 3 seconds back of the best in the US. So I’m going with 1:56/1:57
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Mark Spitz was a revelation when he went to Munich, as I had stopped competitive swimming 4 years earlier his times were otherworldly, to me.
But compared to today he was a troglodyte.

Swimsuit advantages are obvious.
Training regimes are completely different and race prep was different.
The concept of a "taper" was only just starting. So no swimmer was properly ready as they are today.
Add to that no swim caps, if you look at the video he's got long hair, so added drag (the Aussies were shaving, not sure about everyone else).
As already talked about, goggles were not yet race gear.
Add to that lousy lane ropes, pity the poor swimmer in the outside lanes as the waves rebounded from the pool walls at the sides and ends.
I well remember the surge everyone experienced coming to the wall. Every lane got knocked about a bit.

The blocks were lower, so the dive was closer to the water and both feet were together, no push from the backfoot.
As for the actual race, the dive in those days was about being as shallow as possible, you didn't waste time underwater.
No underwater dolphin kick on start or turn in any stroke.
Straight arm pull was typical in all strokes and much slower over distance as they require more muscle (still good for the 50m splash and dash).

I can't find a video of his attempted comeback in 1992 and the match race he had. But from the description it appears that although he overcame some of the start and breakout disadvantages that actual stroke technique resulted in a 1 1/2 body length loss over just half of a 50m race. In a 200m race that would result in several (8-10) body lengths loss to just technique.

And by today's standards, he's kinda short!
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure I could responsibly answer the time question but one thing is for sure, top 3 of these gentlemen for sure kept those hips high in the water and you can just see their superb "feel" for the water. I believe Popovici's coach talks about how much time the young kid spends just playing in the water and how much he just enjoys being in the water. I think I've heard a similar Hall Sr story about sculling and just improved feel for the water.

https://www.instagram.com/...alendurancecoaching/
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:

I stumbled upon this video last night.
https://www.youtube.com/...op&v=IF3kIvu7PZM
Mark Spitz wins gold (2;00.70) and Gary Hall Sr (2:02.86) who still posts around here takes silver.
No goggles, no tech suits, no modern underwaters, no swim caps, not sure if they did shave downs.
How fast do you guys think they could go today? By 2009 Phelps had taken things to 1:51.51, but I believe that was tech suit and after that Milak now has it in 2022 at 1:50.34
Here is world record progression if you wan to slot it in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/...200_metres_butterfly
Dev


The thing I noticed is that it appears that Spitz was allowed to swim a little warm-down swim after the race, rather than having to get out right after race as they do now. Also, he did no big celebration, no climbing to sit on top of the lane rope. It seems that they were a little more reserved back then. :)

Also, regarding the goggles, I believe they were allowed in the '76 Games but since they were relatively new, prob not that many wore them. To this day, there are some swimmers who never wear goggles in races for fear of a "goggle malfunction".

Climbing on lane lines then would have been an automatic DQ. Cables snapped often enough from climbing on them back then. Someone would have to go fish out all the floats from the water while someone else found a spare lane line. Many normal pools did not have spares then. If they recently got new lane lines, they might have saved one or two old ones.
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [Rumpled] [ In reply to ]
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Rumpled wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:

I stumbled upon this video last night.
https://www.youtube.com/...op&v=IF3kIvu7PZM
Mark Spitz wins gold (2;00.70) and Gary Hall Sr (2:02.86) who still posts around here takes silver.
No goggles, no tech suits, no modern underwaters, no swim caps, not sure if they did shave downs.
How fast do you guys think they could go today? By 2009 Phelps had taken things to 1:51.51, but I believe that was tech suit and after that Milak now has it in 2022 at 1:50.34
Here is world record progression if you wan to slot it in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/...200_metres_butterfly
Dev


The thing I noticed is that it appears that Spitz was allowed to swim a little warm-down swim after the race, rather than having to get out right after race as they do now. Also, he did no big celebration, no climbing to sit on top of the lane rope. It seems that they were a little more reserved back then. :)

Also, regarding the goggles, I believe they were allowed in the '76 Games but since they were relatively new, prob not that many wore them. To this day, there are some swimmers who never wear goggles in races for fear of a "goggle malfunction".


Climbing on lane lines then would have been an automatic DQ. Cables snapped often enough from climbing on them back then. Someone would have to go fish out all the floats from the water while someone else found a spare lane line. Many normal pools did not have spares then. If they recently got new lane lines, they might have saved one or two old ones.

Interesting, I did not realize lane lines were so fragile back then. However, even if the lane lines can handle it now, I still think jumping on them is poor form. Better to be modest in victory. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Olympics would of course have new lane lines.
Us lesser teams had to make due.
Floats broke down from UV and ratchets rusted if you couldn't afford new lane lines.

But, climbing on the lane lines was always an auto DQ.

Someone in the Patriot League ( I think) this past weekend got DQ'd for interference by being in another lane at the end of the race. Saw it on SwimSwam.
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [Rumpled] [ In reply to ]
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it was the ACC and the time was top 5 in the country. The kid still has a national qualifying time so this won't cost him that, atleast.

Here's the story:
https://swimswam.com/acc-champion-owen-lloyd-disqualified-for-his-post-race-celebration/


You can tell the age of anyone who comments on the story. Born before 1990 (or there abouts) your reaction is something like too bad this happened but he obviously broke the rules. Born after that and you are outraged he got DQd.
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [Rumpled] [ In reply to ]
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Rumpled wrote:
Olympics would of course have new lane lines.
Us lesser teams had to make due.
Floats broke down from UV and ratchets rusted if you couldn't afford new lane lines.

But, climbing on the lane lines was always an auto DQ.

Someone in the Patriot League ( I think) this past weekend got DQ'd for interference by being in another lane at the end of the race. Saw it on SwimSwam.

Ya, I saw that on SwimSwam also but it was Owen Lloyd after winning the 1650 at the ACC Champs. The Patriot League was where a Navy swimmer got DQ'd for not putting out an "honest effort" in the 200 back b/c he was saving some energy for the 200 fly later in that session. :)

https://swimswam.com/...nest-effort-dispute/


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Here is a short story I wrote a while ago about the origin of swimming goggles. BTW, David Wilkie wore goggles in winning the 200 m breaststroke in 1976 Olympic Games. He was the only one who did.


Prior to the late 1960’s almost no swimmer wore goggles in either practice or competition. Those that did use them wore the large, triangular shaped rubber goggles that we can often see in old photos of swimmers crossing the English Channel. The challenges with those big rubber goggles were that they made swimmers see double, so the swimmer would have to close one eye to avoid confusion. They were also bulky, often leaked and caused more drag for the swimmer.
Swimmers from that era will recall the painful tears being shed after goggle-less practices from the toxicity of chlorine to the corneas. For some of us, that was also a great excuse for not doing homework. Without using goggles, we also struggled to judge the turns correctly from the blurred vision.
In the summer of 1965, a swimmer in Anaheim, California at the Sammy Lee Swim School by the name of Peter Frawley (brother of NCAA 50 free champion from USC, Dan Frawley), saw a small add in the back of a skin diving magazine from the Melbourne Sports Depot in Australia selling small plastic goggles. They were being marketed to pearl divers.
Peter ordered a box of a dozen goggles for 40 cents apiece and when they arrived in Anaheim weeks later, he sold some of them to his team mates at Sammy Lee for 80 cents. I was one of first to purchase a pair.
Beta Testing
The goggles were very similar to the Swedish goggles that are still available today. They were made of hard plastic eye pieces that had rough edges from the mold that needed to be sanded or filed down for comfort. There was no rubberized material nor silicone around the edges to help with sealing or comfort. The lenses were made of thin glass, not plastic. The head straps were made of simple rubber bands that looped twice around the head and the eye pieces were connected by a green string channeled through a small piece of plastic tubing. Separation of the two eye pieces for the variable nose widths was achieved simply by guessing at the amount of string needed to tie them together.
We began wearing those goggles immediately in practices and never stopped. Other teammates at the Sammy Lee Swim School began to join us. The following summer of 1966, I began training with the famous coach, Don Gambril, at the Rosemead Aquatic Center. When I showed up with the goggles, Don and other swimmers there were also intrigued.
Eventually, Don purchased a pair and sent them to his friend, Ron Gilchrist, in Canada. Ron was working for Speedo at the time and had an entrepreneurial spirit. When Ron saw the goggles, he realized the potential and began manufacturing them and selling them under the Speedo brand. I believe that Speedo was the first company to manufacture and market the goggles to swimmers.
Mainstream
Later, in the early 70’s, a company called Malmsten AB in Sweden began producing the goggles of the same style, using plastic lenses instead of glass. They were of higher quality and so they popularized this style of goggles globally. The style ultimately became known as the Swedish Goggle. Many swimmers still prefer to use this style today.
I am not certain who was the first swimmer to use swimming goggles in competition, but the first person I saw use them was David Wilkie, from Scotland, at the Division I NCAA men’s swimming championships in 1973, in the 200 breaststroke. David often wore them in competition and went on to use them in the finals of the 200 breaststroke at the Montreal Olympic Games of 1976 swimming for the UK. He was the only non-American to win a men’s swimming event in those Olympic Games.
If someone wore goggles in competition before David, I am not aware of who did. Perhaps the readers of SwimSwam will be able to help me out here.
I belong to a Swimmer’s Forum on line; some 125 international swimmers from back in the day, most of whom still swim pretty fast. Once, David McIntyre, our fearless leader, did a poll of these members as to what has been the single most profound change that has positively impacted our sport. Many of the members thought the use of swimming goggles was it. They might be right.
Either way, I am proud to have been one of the early adopters. With respect to use of competitive swimming goggles, you now know more about the rest of the story.
Yours in swimming,
Gary Sr.
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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At the AAU Nationals in 1971, Mark and I swam the 200 fly in almost a dead heat. He beat me by .01 seconds in 2:03.9, well under the world record (which I held) of 2:05.0. I was counting on 2:02 + winning the Olympic Games.
Unfortunately, Mark had other ideas and swam 2:01 at Trials and 2:00.7 in Munich. I did the 2:02 I was hoping for...but not enough to win.
Perhaps the biggest difference in today's athletes, besides being much stronger and more talented, is the breathing pattern. Virtually all male elite 200 flyers today breathe every cycle. I wish I had known how precious those molecules of O2 were back then.
But, hey, silver is not too bad. Gary Sr.
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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gary sr wrote:
At the AAU Nationals in 1971, Mark and I swam the 200 fly in almost a dead heat. He beat me by .01 seconds in 2:03.9, well under the world record (which I held) of 2:05.0. I was counting on 2:02 + winning the Olympic Games.
Unfortunately, Mark had other ideas and swam 2:01 at Trials and 2:00.7 in Munich. I did the 2:02 I was hoping for...but not enough to win.
Perhaps the biggest difference in today's athletes, besides being much stronger and more talented, is the breathing pattern. Virtually all male elite 200 flyers today breathe every cycle. I wish I had known how precious those molecules of O2 were back then.
But, hey, silver is not too bad. Gary Sr.

What do you think Mark did between AAU Nationals and Munich to gain literally 3.5 seconds? Was it just maturing as a swimmer? Yes, I saw you guys breathing every second stroke in the video. Was it only when Phelps came along that breathing every stroke in 200 fly became the thing?

As for today's athletes being stronger and more talented I disagree on the talented part. I don't think talent changes in terms of genetics in just 50 years. But nutritions, training etc etc have evolved in 50 years so they are stronger, but the gene pool is roughly the same, it is probably just more swimmers with good genetics for the sport have their genetics maximized via training approaches today as all sports have evolved.

But realistically given the tech of the day you guys were "flying" . It seems the general consensus around here is Mark's 2.00 time translates way sub 1:55 to today.
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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gary sr wrote:
At the AAU Nationals in 1971, Mark and I swam the 200 fly in almost a dead heat. He beat me by .01 seconds in 2:03.9, well under the world record (which I held) of 2:05.0. I was counting on 2:02 + winning the Olympic Games.
Unfortunately, Mark had other ideas and swam 2:01 at Trials and 2:00.7 in Munich. I did the 2:02 I was hoping for...but not enough to win.
Perhaps the biggest difference in today's athletes, besides being much stronger and more talented, is the breathing pattern. Virtually all male elite 200 flyers today breathe every cycle. I wish I had known how precious those molecules of O2 were back then.
But, hey, silver is not too bad. Gary Sr.

Thanks for posting this ----- very cool.

But the question - how fast can you go today?

(I'm guessing still faster than most of us)
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I think Mark had been capable of swimming faster in 1971 or 1970. He just chose to wait and show all of his cards in 1972. I am sure he was motivated more that year, but doubt he trained any harder before Munich. In fact, in early summer 72 he wrestled with not swimming at all, as he was supposed to enter Dental School in the fall. With the Olympic schedule, he would have missed a few weeks of that.
Both Doc Counsilman (coach at IU) and Sherm Chavoor (coach in Sacramento) talked him out of that idea. The rest is history.
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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No way does spitz go 5 seconds faster just due to technology. That’s faster than pankratov and Mel Stewart.
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [gary sr] [ In reply to ]
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gary sr wrote:
I think Mark had been capable of swimming faster in 1971 or 1970. He just chose to wait and show all of his cards in 1972. I am sure he was motivated more that year, but doubt he trained any harder before Munich. In fact, in early summer 72 he wrestled with not swimming at all, as he was supposed to enter Dental School in the fall. With the Olympic schedule, he would have missed a few weeks of that.
Both Doc Counsilman (coach at IU) and Sherm Chavoor (coach in Sacramento) talked him out of that idea. The rest is history.

Thanks for that insight! Greatly appreciate this! Good to hear from the people in the pool who were in the video. Not sure where you heard about my ask to see if Gary Hall Sr can share commentary on this, but cool to hear from one of the legends involved. I spent a weekend in Oct 2016 swimming in those lanes in that pool when I was just getting into swimming doing 2x per days visualizing you guys flying through the water. That's the cool thing about swimming you can go drop in at public swims and do the same stuff in the same venues as you all at a tourist pace!!! You can't just go do batting practice in Yankee stadium, but you can at the Olympic pools (swam in Munich, Montreal, Seoul, Barcelona, Beijing, London) and waiting to swim in Paris and Tokyo!!!

What was it like for you guys keeping focus given the terrorist massacre in the 1972 Olympic village. Must have been hard to keep mentally in the game.
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Re: How Fast Would They Go Today: Gary Hall Sr vs Spitz Munich Olympics 200 fly [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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No way does spitz go 5 seconds faster just due to technology. That’s faster than pankratov and Mel Stewart.//

Did they win 7 golds with 7 WR's??? (-;

But seriously, if you look at Mel in 88, there were only a couple of advantages we are talking about in place. And in those 15+ years, he only beats Spitz by about a second in the 200 fly. SO to me Spitz has him at this point. Then later he drops his times a few more seconds, a lot just because he is one of the first to do underwaters. But they are weak compared to todays guys, but head and shoulders ahead of the guys of the time like Gross from Germany. The pools were only a tiny bit faster, lane lines were still very weak, and the starting blocks were virtually the same with a little more tilt, but no track starts as of yet.


They did wear goggles and some caps by then, and it was the beginning of more breathing during the race too. A lot of guys would do two up one down by then, so as Gary pointed out, a big advantage to have that extra O2 for such a long grueling race. So by the time Mel was doing 1;55's I would say he and Spitz would have been pretty even if you back out the technology. It wasn't much, they still didnt have suits yet, but it wasn't nothing either, especially the early underwaters Mel perfected...


Here is a WR swim from Mel in the early 90's......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86xebPASRFA
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