Hour Record- Boardman Rules

Dec 1, 03 5:48

Post #1 of 31 (6132 views)

The UCI in all it's wisdom dictated that the world hour record would be reset to represent the Eddy's old record set on a track bike with drop bars. After this all records were set on TT bikes with disc wheels and aero bars. Guys tore the record apart, Indurain, Rominger, Boardman made it seem easy to break a record the effort of which the greatest cyclist in history claimed took years off his career. When the UCI reset the record Chris Boardman decided to challenge it on a track bike with drop bars. He beat the record by 10 meters, thats right 10 meters. He said that the effort was the most unpleasant time he ever spent on a bike and this from a man considered one of the greatest time trial riders in history.

Equipment does make a difference, we go faster as we spend more money. Why not level the playing field, if we all rode equipment within certain parameters the strongest guy would win. Not that I think that the strongest guys are not already winning. But if we all rode 32 hole, box section rims then it would a level playing field, we could still compete and go fast and have fun. The benefit would be all the time and money that the rest of us are spending on buying the latest and greatest stuff. Imagine how much fun that would be.... No more "i gotta get", no more hassle with finding, ordering, shipping, selling old stuff on EBAY.... no more over spending...

Triathlon is a grass roots sport and this should be a grass roots movement. The people decide what the rules are and that is that. No one loses out, same races same faces.

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [bryin] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 03 6:22

Post #2 of 31 (6106 views)

An interesting point setting equipment parameters. I don't think it makes much difference in the average triathlete. At Boardman's level the skill set is closely matched and a wheel might make the difference of setting the record or not. Triathletes skill levels vary greatly. (Old results in a tri, the fastest bike split in my AG 26.7mph, the slowest 15.5mph) Many a person spends $1000's on aero frames, wheels, helmets etc yet they average 18mph. Without it they might avg 17.9mph. They should invest in riding more instead. For the top age groupers and pro's you would probably see a bigger difference.
IMO, I think the UCI is stupid for not acknowledging technology and training advances and letting the records stand. I like the aero geek factor!

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Dec 1, 03 6:41

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [bryin] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 03 6:27

Post #3 of 31 (6104 views)

I'm not sure about the rest of the post (personally, I like all the advanced equipment, aero gear, etc., even though I can't afford much of it), but the comments by Merckx and Boardman about the level of discomfort they experienced in their quest for the record are interesting. For me, nothing is more uncomfortable than an all out bike effort. Running hard is tough, and all out swim intervals are also painful. But nothing comes close to the amount of pain from a bike interval or max effort time trial. Cycling is one of the toughest sports there is -- period. All the Lycra, shaved legs and flourescent kits are deceiving -- cycling is not a sport for the faint of heart. The zone you enter in a hard cycling effort is unlike any other in sport. I find it hard to describe -- it is just something one must experience to understand. And all of you have experienced it before, and you know what I'm talking about.

What Boardman, Obree, Rominger, Merckx and the other greats have experienced in the quest for the hour record is unfathomable to me. I can't imagine entering that kind of zone and staying there for a prolonged period of time.

Didn't one of those guys cough up blood for a couple weeks after setting the hour record? Obree, maybe?

RP

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [rhpreston] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 03 6:58

Post #4 of 31 (6064 views)

In Reply To:

The zone you enter in a hard cycling effort is unlike any other in sport. I find it hard to describe -- it is just something one must experience to understand. And all of you have experienced it before, and you know what I'm talking about.

What Boardman, Obree, Rominger, Merckx and the other greats have experienced in the quest for the hour record is unfathomable to me. I can't imagine entering that kind of zone and staying there for a prolonged period of time.

Didn't one of those guys cough up blood for a couple weeks after setting the hour record? Obree, maybe?

RP

RHPreston, you are likely correct Clara Hughes, who won Olympic medals for Canada in both cycling and speedskating credits her speedskating medal at the Salt Lake City Games to the fact that she could hurt more than any speedskater on the oval as a result of her road cycling background. If you saw her skate, that race, she did not have the best technique, on the ice but hurt more than others...

As for the aero geek factor, bring on the toys. Nothing like innovation :-). All those 1990's hour guys like Boardman, Rominger, Indurain and Obree are total studs ! So when is Lance or Jan going to take on the hour record ?

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [bryin] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 03 7:03

Post #5 of 31 (6056 views)

Putting aside my thoughts on whether we should have aero equipment or not, there's a few points i think that are worth adding.

1) firstly, Merckx took advantage of every tech equipment available at the time (e.g. altitude)

2) Boardman when setting the athletes record (the 10metre one), he was on his way out -- he'd dropped an significant amount of form since he'd recorded the Superman Record (about 40 ish W or just under 10%)

3) aero equipment makes a greater difference in time saving the *slower* you are

Ric

http://www.cyclecoach.com

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [Ric_Stern] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 03 11:04

Post #6 of 31 (5911 views)

If you can average 15 mph at max effort on a regular bike, you will not gain as much as a rider that can average 30 mph going with all the aero bells and whistles.

Perhaps we should look at it this way. How much wind resistance is there at 5 mph? How much at 50 mph? Who is going to benefit most from the aerodynamic improvement equipement can make, the one going 5 or the one going 50?

For some strange reason Indurain used 190mm cranks, that is crazy! Merckx's record is amazing also in that he went out to break the worlds 5k, 10k, 10 mile, 20k, 30k, 40k, and 25 mile records also. He suffered and faded badly in the closing minutes, Boardman picked up his speed. Do you think that Merckx, a guy that always rode on grit and emotion would have "eased" up like he did if he knew that the world record was only 10 meters up the road? Boardman had that info and used it.

One hour record holder set his world record at night. The only light he had was a spotlight that circled the track at a rate that allowed him to break the hour record if he followed it. He did, and broke the record. This type of pacing was outlawed. Merckx used time splits to stay on track of his concurrent record attempts. Boardman used splits to make sure he beat Eddy by 10 meters.

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Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 03 11:37

Post #7 of 31 (5880 views)

"Perhaps we should look at it this way. How much wind resistance is there at 5 mph? How much at 50 mph? Who is going to benefit most from the aerodynamic improvement equipement can make, the one going 5 or the one going 50?"

But who will be out there longer (benfiting from the improved aerodynamics the whole time). Ric said the slower rider saves more time than the faster one.

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 03 11:42

Post #8 of 31 (5874 views)

The guys who are going 5 mph or 15 mph are out there a lot longer than the guys going 30 or 50. Their time savings is therefore greater, but maybe not their wattage savings.

It's true that Boardman had an advantage in knowing what pace he needed to ride to break the record. And Merckx had ridden knowing what pace he needed to ride to break Ritter's record. I really don't think you can say Boardman had an unfair advantage, especially since Boardman set his record in Manchester and Merckx set his in Mexico City.

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [john] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 03 11:50

Post #9 of 31 (5867 views)

I'd argue there is a point when the rider going 30 mph saves watts AND time over the slower rider.

Wind resistnace drops almost off the map at the lower speeds.

No doubt, Boardman was faster and arguably a better TT rider than Merckx, I think Merckx did more at the time on his ride than Boardman did.

Everyone is asking why Ullrich, Armstrong, Botero, etc. aren't riding the hour, is it because they expect them to go faster than Boardman? You bet! No one looked to one of Merckx's rivals to beat his time. It was though inhuman. Boardman's wasn't inhuman, maybe inhumane.

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Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 03 12:11

Post #10 of 31 (5842 views)

Regarding the slow rider saving more time, it is counterintuitive, but it is true.

I would say that Merckx was a far superior rider to Boardman. It is quite possible that before his crash on the velodrome he was the greatest cyclist that the world will ever see. However, Merckx's superior talent makes the achievements of Boardman even that impressive. Theoretically you can't ever go 100% on the bike (unless you pull a Phidippides), but I think Boardman's records probably come the closest to it. He is/was my favorite rider because of his grit.

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 03 13:59

Post #11 of 31 (5760 views)

I think the UCI athlete's record is a joke. After Boardman set his record he said his helmet saved him about 1:30 over Merckx' leather hairnet. Then there's the lycra skinsuit and shoecovers and clipless pedals vs wool and toeclips/straps too. Factor all those in and he may have been 2km behind instead of 10m up. It makes the whole exercise pointless. Records from different eras will never truly be (quantitatively) comparable.

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [bryin] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 03 14:52

Post #12 of 31 (5720 views)

How about your brilliant idea plus no training. Yeah that make things fair. You are not allowed to train before races. Why should someone who has more time than you be allowed to come the race more prepared? Unfair I say. While we're on equipment all bikes must be measured the same. No unfair getting fitted properly.

Hey I have another idea. Why not have us all listen the same music, read the same books and watch the same movies. Be all alike!

Even better! We all have to finish at the exact same time!!! One big group of grassroots clones!!!

THIS IS GREATNESS!!!

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [bryin] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 03 15:55

Post #13 of 31 (5686 views)

The advances in bike technolgy will defintely make you go faster: aerobars, aero frames, aero helmets etc...but for something like the hour record I think its good the UCI has some restrictions...at the very least it gives an accurate time to measure from. For example, ten years from now you will accurately be able to say if cyclists are really getting stronger or equipment is getting better when comparing against earlier cyclists in a controlled environment...I don't think that it matters as much during the time trials in the tour de france while the technology does make a difference everyone has it and therefore everyone is faster. To make the comparison that maybe they should have to go without training etc...while obvious sarcasm, is taking the argument too far...its hard to say whether LA is stronger than Merkx was if LA or Ullrich are able to use aerobars and every new piece of equipment thoroughly tested in a wind tunnel to give every bit of advantage.

For races like triathlon or even road racing I think that it would be stupid to restrict the technology...at the very least the advances do help to drive the bike industry...how many people see that new disc wheel, aeroframe, or set of wheels with X amount of grams configured for the best performance by NASA and people start salivating? Even then the advances trickle down to the lower end bikes which i think you can get a nicer bike for the money than you could 20 years ago which again can influence people to bike new bikes.

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [gj] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 03 19:39

Post #14 of 31 (5634 views)

I think I will disagree that the bells and whistles will save more time for a slower ride. How slow? someone going 58min for a 40k is slower than me but still going fast enough to take advantage of the aero bells and whistles. Someone averaging 15mph probably isn't going to go up to 15.3 b/c of a disk, helmet and frame. They aren't going fast enough to really take advantage of the possible benefits or time savings where as someone avg 26 may go to 26.2.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 03 19:53

Post #15 of 31 (5628 views)

Exactly. I will say with all certainty that a rider going 3 hours in a 40k on a Schwinn Varsity will go 3 hours on a Hooker Elite or Cervelo P3 (your welcome Gerard) Kent Bostick might go 51:30 on a Varsity but can go 48 and change on his GT Superbike.

You can't ignore the "dynamics" in "Aerodynamics"

Can Mr. Willet and any other Cobb disciples chime in here?

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Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [bryin] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 03 21:15

Post #16 of 31 (5610 views)

Boardman was also retiring and past his prime when he took on the hour record.

He wore a helmet (unlike Eddy), increasing his drag somewhat.

Last edited by: Zinc: Dec 1, 03 21:16

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 03 22:52

Post #17 of 31 (5585 views)

In Reply To:

Exactly. I will say with all certainty that a rider going 3 hours in a 40k on a Schwinn Varsity will go 3 hours on a Hooker Elite or Cervelo P3 (your welcome Gerard) Kent Bostick might go 51:30 on a Varsity but can go 48 and change on his GT Superbike.

You can't ignore the "dynamics" in "Aerodynamics"

Then the question is: At what speed do aerodynamics become an issue? Obviously, we all fall somewhere between the two above examples. I think I've seen the number 25mph floated around. If the aerodynamic benefit is negligible until that point, then disc wheels, etc... aren't even an issue in an IM, except for maybe a couple of pros on a fast course like Florida.

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 03 0:46

Post #18 of 31 (5568 views)

at 25 km/hr, 90% of the retarding forces are from air drag

Ric

http://www.cyclecoach.com

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [john] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 03 6:11

Post #19 of 31 (5501 views)

Superior all rounder maybe. But it is possible that a better pure time trialist than Mercxx exists (in other words, a specialist).

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 03 9:22

Post #20 of 31 (5426 views)

O.K. I'll try all from http://www.analyticcycling.com Use defaults except where stated otherwise.

Consider level ground. Slow rider moves 8.33 mph requires 18.9W. It takes 3 hrs to cover the 40K. Now have the rider expend the 18.9 W on the P3. Say the C_dA drops by 20%(very conservative), now the speed goes up to 8.77 mph and the 40K takes 2:51 for a savings of 9 minutes.

For Bostick, using the analyticcycling defaults for the varsity, 51:30 for 40K is 46.6 km/hr (28.96 mph) requiring 301 W. To drop his time to 48:30 (49.48 Km/hr, 30.75 mph) would mean C_dA dropped from 0.2 to 0.164, an 18% drop, similar to our friend above.

So the slower rider saved 9 minutes by going to the aero setup while Bostick was only able to gain 3 minutes.

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [bryin] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 03 11:58

Post #21 of 31 (5370 views)

"Equipment does make a difference, we go faster as we spend more money. Why not level the playing field, if we all rode equipment within certain parameters the strongest guy would win."

I think it's a matter of degree. HOW MUCH faster can more expensive equipment make me? Not that much. If I train harder than the buy in my age group with expensive equipment I will probably beat him. At the elite level, the equipment is a matter of choice, not budget. They all have access to the latest technology so restrictions wouldn't really mean anything.

In sailing, my other hobby, technology is a much larger factor. You really can buy speed. This is the reason that one-design racing (even incredibly expensive one designs) is taking over the sailing world. Even within one-design, though, one boat may have a better bottom job or better sails that make it faster - just not enough faster to overcome dumb mistakes or a better sailor (usually).

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [asgelle] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 03 12:11

Post #22 of 31 (5358 views)

there is no way his gains are 20% at 8mph.

Rather I concede and now agree that aero equipment helps slower riders more than it helps faster riders timewise.

None of us go 8mph. Hypothetical Rant Over.

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Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [bryin] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 03 12:13

Post #23 of 31 (5358 views)

Im thinking the equipment is a bigger issue than what some want to admit....esp. a good pair of race wheels...anyone remember in the 70's when the "superstars" show pitted pro athlete against pro athlete and they would ride those amf bikes around a running track? One of my other favorite bike races is the "Little 500" at Indiana University...all equal bikes. Such a great race, in fact if you remember the movie "Breaking Away" it was based on little 5. Speaking of bike movies, I saw "American Flyer" for the first time recently...cheesy!!!! oops..off subject.

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [Ric_Stern] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 03 13:04

Post #24 of 31 (5330 views)

In Reply To:

at 25 km/hr, 90% of the retarding forces are from air drag

Ric

where did you get this data? John Cobb states that his wind tunnel tests http://bicyclesports.com/...c_display.asp?idx=30 have revealed 75% retarding forces by air drag and the other 25% by rolling resistance and bearing friction, etc.

Re: Hour Record- Boardman Rules [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 03 13:28

Post #25 of 31 (5313 views)

It's like a person proudly stating they just cut their 5K time in half, and then you find out they went from 40 minutes down to 20. That's a great improvement, but they aren't going to be runnin' with the big boys, and it's going to take a hell of a lot more work to get to 15 minutes, than it did to get to 20.

There's a reason races aren't measured by who saves the most time...

---------------------------------------------------------

"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."

Last edited by: Jack in Mi: Dec 2, 03 13:30

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