From quick research, there doesn't seem to be any difference except the DE - dextrose equivalent. My uneducated belief is that a different DE means a different size molecule chain that may have a different absoption rate.

Try this site for more info.
http://www.grainprocessing.com/food/maldescr.html

I began mixing energy and recovery drinks since the end of last season using the m580. You will want to account for the difference in density between the m500 and m580.

I've found that 3/4 cup m580 = 100g = 376 calories

Alicia's Energy Drink Recipe- (makes 3 water bottles)

1.5 cups m580 + 3 bottles of water. Combine all ingredients into a 1 gallon container. Dry ingredients will dissolve. Pour into individual water bottles.

Alicia's Energy/Electrolyte Drink Recipe- (makes 3 water bottles)

1.5 cups m580 + 3 scoops Ultima + 3 bottles of water. Combine all ingredients into a 1 gallon container. Dry ingredients will dissolve. Pour into individual water bottles.

Alicia's Energy/Electrolyte/Recovery Drink Recipe- (makes 3 water bottles)

1.5 cups m580 + 3 scoops Ultima + 2 Tbsp Unflavored Gelatin + 3 bottles of water. This is a little more involved.

Add gelatin and enough water into a non-stick sauce pan. Stir and let stand until water is absorbed and it turns into a solid.

While you are waiting for your gelatin to solidify, combine m580 + Ultima into a 1 gallon container. Add the remainder of water. Dry ingredients will dissolve.

Use medium heat. When it starts to melt stir until liguid. Do not scorch the gelatin. You just want it to be a hot liquid. Pour liquid gelatin into your water/m580 solution. Stir/shake inorder to make sure liquid gelatin solution is blended well with your water/m580 solution. Pour into your individual water botles and refrigerate.

Analysis:

200g m580 - 376 x 2 = 762 cal 94.5g x 2 = 189g carbohydrate

Ultima 25 x 3 = 75 cal 6.0g x 3 = 18g carbohydrate

Gelatin 2 tbsp = 100 cal 26g protein

Play around with it and have fun but more importantly you need to find the ratios that work best for your needs. Remember you are your own experiment.

Resources:

m580 - JMSwank is the distributor for GPC. GPC does not sell direct unless you are buying by the truckload. Smallest quantity is 50# bag. (319) 626-3683

50# of m580 is quite a lot and you may want to consider dividing the bag into smaller containers. Three 5 gallon paint buckets from your local hardware store work quite nicely. Be sure to buy lids. This is for moisture control.

unflavored gelatin - after a bit of research, BulkFoods.com sells a high grade gelatin in 5# bags.

Wow! That is sure helpful! Thanks!

So I assume that you find no difference (in osmolality/absorbtion or flavor, et al) between M500 and M580. The cust serv person at JM Swank said that 580 was sweeter than 500 and the GPC web site says something about osmolality, but does not go into detail.

Have you ever mixed the stuff up as a paste/gel? That sounds like the best route for an IM, since you can flask the CH's conveniently and just get water at the aid stations.

It seems like Ultima is a source of both carbos and Electros? I was thinking about adding Endurolyte powder to the M580 in a gel. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks!

We don't think there would be a huge difference but then we aren't really set up for controlled experiments. I tend to change too many variables and am not good a documenting the procedures. If you use the Alicia recipes as a base point you will be very close to golden.

You may find that your gut can tolerate a more calorie dense solution. Since you will soon have the basic ingredients the experiment is yours.

I ran the numbers once on the energy/electrolyte/recovery drink and found it to be an 11.5% carbohydrate solution, slightly denser than the standard commercial mixes. The protein number came to 8/1 instead of the highly touted 4/1. But with gelatin if you go any thicker is becomes a gel and not a drink. Anyway, I think the most important thing about the protein is that you need "some".

For energy 'gels' we use brown rice syrup with a little bit of salt water added. Since we have a 55# bucket we have not experimented with making a malto based 'gel'. http://www.lundberg.com/ Cost per ounce is very good at this level.

Alicia carries extra endurolytes with her on the bike and run. Have not experimented with mixing the powder into her gel.

You may ask what started all this madness? The desire to control exactly what goes into the body. We avoid unspecified natural flavors and all artificial sweetners, flavors, colors, and fragrances. Best of luck with your experiments.

That lundberg is a great link, thanks. Rice Syrup is basically maltodextrin, right?

Do you know the difference between Lundberg's Organic Sweet dreams syrup ($109.20/55#) and Nutra-Fmd Sweet Dreams (($83.20/55#)

Thank you again for your very helpful insight and info.

No rice syrup is definitely not maltodextrin. Malto is derived from corn. The reason we went with brown rice syrup is that it is the primary ingredient in CliffShots. Since the shots were on her list of good things I think I called a halt to the CliffShot purchasing after about the 5th box and sought out the ingredients.

I went for the nutrafarmed instead of the organic. Lundberg seems to be an operation that really cares about their product so in this instance I did not opt for the organic. In my mind the only diference was price. Like any syrup, brown rice syrup does have a flavor. Alicia has adjusted to the flavor and, frankly, it is not that bad. Some may find it strong.

I think it is kind of like making the jump from using sugar to sweeten coffee or tea to using honey. It takes a little while to adjust but once adjusted everything is OK.

When your 55# bucket of syrup arrives and you pop the top you will, at once, question your sanity. ;) To make things easier to handle I also sprung for a commercial grade pump dispenser. You will understand when you get your bucket of syrup.

For racing (1/2 IM) we simply fill a couple of gel flasks with brown rice syrup. I haven't calcualted her calorie intake during races but the combination of the liquid concoctions and gel flask concoctions seems to be adequate, endurolytes for insurance.

Why did you say that 100g = 376 calories? I thought that 1g of carb = 4 cals.

For reference, 1 cup of M500 = 60 grams.

I used the nutritional data sheet supplied by GPC for m580. 100g contains 376 cal. I think the difference is in density. On my gram scale it takes 3/4 cup of m580 to equal 100g. Measuring cups also vary in accuracy so my calculations only appy to my measuring cups.

m500 is less dense .34g/cc compared to .40g/cc for the m580 (according to the GPC website)

The key thing is once you have your basic ingredients you are in total control of the recipe and will need to discover during your training what works best for you. Do not experiment on race day.

Thanks again.

So rice syrup has the same type of (good) carbos as malto?

What type of commercial pump and where did you get it?

From the International Starch Institute ?? http://www.starch.dk/...starch/ricesyrup.htm

Brown rice syrup is an extremely versatile and relatively healthy sweetener which is derived by culturing rice with enzymes to break down the starches, then straining off the liquid and cooking it until the desired consistency is reached.

The final product is roughly 50% soluble complex carbohydrates, 45% maltose, and 3% glucose. The glucose is absorbed into the bloodstream immediately, the maltose takes up to one and a half hours to be digested, and the complex carbohydrates take from two to three hours, providing a steady supply of energy. Rice syrup has a shelf life of about a year, and once opened, should be stored in a cool, dry place.

You might also want to check out http://www.californianatural.com/...eSyrup/brown/BRS.htm

Just do a google for "brown rice syrup" carbohydrates. BRS is powerful stuff, which I guess is the reason Clif uses it. Of course we took the route of the big bucket of BRS well before Clif intoduced their 16oz container so we are already invested in the gear. It may not make sense. 55# is a lot of brown rice syrup. The pump dispenser also solved our honey dispensing problem, we use a 2 well condiment pump, so for me atleast it was a no brainer.

Check out restaurant suppy places. I got mine at eBay.

In the past, I was also poking around for a dispenser for my own homebrew. Did you get a stainless steel version? Muucho $$ isn't it if it weren't for ebay?

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Proud member of Team Tooth Pick (TTP): like a leaf in the wind.

Yep, I thought bike parts were expensive until I started poking around the restaurant supply stores. Stainless, nice piece of equipment, $100 or so. However, it is nice being able to pump out honey or syrup on demand from the kitchen counter. Still takes a little effort to pump these syrups when they are at room temp and sometimes the honey will crystalize inside the spring mechanism. I tell Alicia is part of her stength work and we get many chuckles of enjoyment.

Thanks again for all the advice and pointers, GC. I am fully charged up now that my bucket o syrup has come! Do you know how many calories there are in they syrup?

Wow, it looks like Lundberg has revamped their website since my last visit

http://www.lundberg.com/products/syrup_nf.html

They say 2 tbsp = 1 serving = 42g

31 g carbohydrates
1 g protein

What was your first reaction when you popped the lid off the bucket?

thanks, it looks like 2 tbsp is like a Clif shot. I will try to mix it with Endurolyte powder to cut the need for the pills.

My first reaction was, gc was right...then I had to drag the kids away from it as they were dying to have a mud fight...(my 4 year old daughter loves opening up the "paint buckets" of the M580 and running her hands though the fine powder!

The only bummer with the M580 is that it really takes a lot to get enough cals into the system for long course. So I am happy (I guess ;-) to have that big bucket of rice syrup.

Again, thanks for sharing your experience. It has been very helpful!