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Heavy testing, Titanflex and P3
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I have been riding my P3 for five years now. Yes, I bought Cervelo before Cervelo was cool. It is a fabulous bike, but I have never been happy with my efforts in long races. OK, so the problem is the P3 has a lousy rider, but my eye has been wandering for a couple of years now. I decided to give a beam bike a try to see if it would make a difference.

Tom at Titanflex kindly agreed to lend me a frame for testing. I took him up on it. My testing was to do two three hour time trials at IM effort in good conditions around a 4.4 mile loop on my P3 and the same with the Titanflex.

My intention was never to see which bike was the "fastest." There is no way I could do a test that would control conditions well enough to measure any small difference in the "speed" of the bikes.

I did the P3 trials first. On my first effort, my lap times increased noticeably after one hour, with the lap times increasing by about 20 seconds per 4.4 mile lap. It was very obvious why: I was uncomfortable after one hour. I was changing positions to deal with a bicycle seat being pushed up my butt.

For the second trial on the P3 I added a seat cover to try to make me more comfortable. It helped. My speed didn't fall off until after two hours, again by about 20 seconds per lap.

I then broke down my P3 and used all the same components to build up the Titanflex. Thus I used the same fork, wheels and other components.

For the first three hour test with the Titanflex, the difference was very obvious. I never got uncomfortable and was never squirming around trying to deal with the bicycle seat despite the lack of a seat cover. My lap times did not vary during the test. I did 19.2 mph average speed for each hour of the three hour test. This was an identical speed to the faster of the two P3 tests.

Given the improved comfort, I decided to reconfigure the Titanflex to make it steeper and I lowered the front end by nearly one inch. I have never been able to maintain this aggressive a position on the P3 because of comfort issues.

In the next test I maintained a nearly constant speed throughout, averaging 20.2, 20.2 and 20.1 mph in each of the three hours. Some of this increase in speed can be explained by nearly perfect conditions, but I expect most of it was because of the more aggressive position I was now able to maintain on my first attempt with no problems. Interestingly, my HR was four beats per minute lower than any of the previous trials.

I am obviously sold on the bike. I will be using it at Lake Placid this year. I hope it will help me avoid the big slow down I have on the second lap of that course every year. Last year was my best effort there, but I still slowed by over 25 minutes on the second lap.

I am a middle of the IM pack (almost) 45-49 competitor. I am old, fat and slow. I believe this bike can help people like me that fade in long efforts due to discomfort. I have always been unable to maintain an aero position on long efforts, and my aero position has not been aggressive at all.

If you are one of the overpowered studs on this board, this bike probably won't help you. If you think about it, in the process of applying much more power to the pedals, you are lifting much of your body weight off the seat and are thus more likely to be comfortable. Underpowered blobs like me have more dead weight sitting on the saddle with the obvious consequences.
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Re: Heavy testing, Titanflex and P3 [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Art,

Interesting test....and that is a lot of 3 hour rides early in the season! BTW - I will be at LP in the 45-49 age group on my P3. I have had the P3 5 years just like you.

I do have a comment on the comfort issue from my experience on a beam bike. The beam bike (mine was a corban softride powerV) did not to have the saddle as dialed in to be comfortable; whereas, on the P3 I had to really play with it a good bit to get it just right (it is now) and is just as comfortable. The point is that I don't believe the saddle (tilt, slant, scew, etc) needs to quite as precise on a beam bike, or at least that is my experience, and may need to be quite precise on a non-beam bike. My P3 is precise for me and I am faster on it, and more comfortable, on my 70 mile TT cousre that I have been doing for over 20 years on 5 different bikes (Ti, beam, steel, Al, and P3).

Keep us updated!

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: Heavy testing, Titanflex and P3 [david] [ In reply to ]
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I tried a lot of different things to get my P3 comfortable on a long ride. It is not the P3 that is the problem. It is the wimp rider.

I won't be selling my P3 any time soon though. It is still a great bike. I will think about using it for sprint races for a while.
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Re: Heavy testing, Titanflex and P3 [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Nice post, Art. Sounds like a good choice you've made.

Good luck on your training!
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Re: Heavy testing, Titanflex and P3 [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Better riders, such as Zack and Molina have gone to beam bikes which have given a second life to their tri careers. Myself... I had a softride in 95 on which I set my Ironman bike PB of 5:17 and also biked 2:39 in Wildflower. For some reason I was convinced that it never climbed well due to weight, but realistically, the proof is in the performances, which were awesome. I also always ran well off the bike when I had the softride and it was super aero...maybe I need to go back to beam technology :-)

Thanks Art for the review.
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Re: Heavy testing, Titanflex and P3 [Ashburn] [ In reply to ]
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You inspired the last test in which I got a more aggressive position. I am approaching the limits of how low I can get without going to a weird stem. I will soon have a stem with a -17 degree rise. That will get me down another cm and at the bottom of the range as calculated by Dan's formula.

No big thing there, but it is an improvement for me. I was able to maintain for three hours on the first try.
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Re: Heavy testing, Titanflex and P3 [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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The Softride is heavy, but once I have the Titanflex in fighting shape, I doubt it will be much over 17 pounds, very comparable to the P3. Obviously there are lighter bikes out there.

I have already saved three ounces off the saddle (Aspide vs. Azoto) and two ounces by not needing a saddle cover with no comfort concerns from these weight reductions.

Of course, if I could do a 5:17, I probably wouldn't need any of this stuff.
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Re: Heavy testing, Titanflex and P3 [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Art, 5:17 was 10 years ago. I can't do that now...I am looking for technological assistance ...thus the intrigue or returning to beam technology at some point :-)
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Re: Heavy testing, Titanflex and P3 [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Art,

Glad you like the bike. Just for the record, in my view the TF is not just for folks with concerns about comfort/back issues or whatnot. I think that anyone will bike faster if they are comfortable. I dropped significant chunks of time from every single bike split last year (my first on the TF), and also improved run splits. While I am also not "one of the overpowered studs on this board", I am typically top 10% in bike splits and I find that the longer the race (1/2, IM, 12 hour bike races...), the better I do, probably since I get less fatigued from the road beating. I guess you could attribute bike improvements to more miles on the bike last year, but that also is related to being comfortable enough to ride 10 hours in a weekend....
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Re: Heavy testing, Titanflex and P3 [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know what shape you are in at this point in the season, but can I make an suggestion that part of your improvement in comfort and speed were due to the fact that they were your third and fourth rides of that duration? To be fair, should you not reverse the sequence and retest on the P3?

Just Wonderin'

jtz
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Re: Heavy testing, Titanflex and P3 [BudgetTriMi] [ In reply to ]
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There are for sure many factors affecting the results. The hot weather is now here in Florida, so these tests are not going to be repeated any time soon.

It would not be fair to compare the speeds of the bikes, so I did not. It is fair to say that I would expect the same results if I were to reverse the tests since my experience on the P3 has been pretty typical during the five years I have ridden it.

But then again, you just never know.
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Re: Heavy testing, Titanflex and P3 [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Art, I think most of the difference, if not all of it, is in improved positioning.

Not only am I noticeably more comfortable went my taint aint in pain, I find I can rotate my pelvis more forward when on my TitanFlex...because it simple doesn't hurt when I hit rough spots in the road. This new ability to set a forward pelvic tilt is more powerful for me (I've been blessed with ample gluteal muscle). Combine a more powerful position with less squriming around and sitting up due to discomfort, as well as being able to lower the front end further than I used to be able to ride, and I'm faster than before.

I have a course that I've been doing for over a year, today, I tied my old speed record atop the TitanFlex. It was my first ride in a new, lower front-end position, and the combination of better position and comfort made enough difference that I tied my best disc wheel/aero front wheel time over the same course, and I only had training wheels on today.. And, my perceived effort was less today...I was simply riding tempo, not racing for a best time. Oh, I did have a LG aero helmet on for the first time (Thanks, G!)...but, I'll still say it was improved positioning that accounted for the really good performance.

You'll really like the bike more and more over time...especially when you learn to trust it not to hurt, and you'll just stay seated while you pedal right through rough pavement/railroad tracks (yes, that's right, kids...stay seated right over railroad tracks...don't try that on any non-suspended skinny tire bike).



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
Last edited by: Titan: Mar 30, 05 18:53
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Re: Heavy testing, Titanflex and P3 [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting test.

I've had my TF for a year now and still love it. Your comment about being able to maintain a pace mirrors my experience last November (2004) in IMFL. From the download of the Ergomo powermeter, I was very consistant in every hour over speed, heartrate and power for the 5 1/2 ride (something like 32km/h at 145bpm and 200 W normalized -- don't remember the exact numbers).

Something I found more amazing was how much others were slowing in the last hour of the ride. At mile 75, I had to stop to replace a contact lens that I lost at mile 25 (and I had to pee). That stop took about 5 minutes. By the end of the ride, I had caught and passed many of the people that had been in near me in the first 75 miles all without changing my effort. As I looked around, most people looked like they were ready to throw their bikes away. I was quite happy and wouldn't have minded continuing on the bike.

On getting the bike down to 17lbs: I'm always amazed that people can do that. My TF weighs in at 22.5lbs. Not sure where I could lose 5 pounds (other than from around my waist).

On running off the TF: I had a couple of really good sprint runs last year. For IMFL, I think I had a lousy run at 4:15. But for what it's worth, I even split the run.

Rob
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