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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [hambini] [ In reply to ]
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I have no dog in this fight, but it’s apparent to me that you’re simply being obtuse. There is lots of data that you could release without violating secrecy and privacy.

When I was in school, my maths teacher didn’t give marks for simply having the correct answer. You also had to show your work. ST is much the same way, around here if you want any credit for anything, you need to show your work. If you can’t do that, then don’t expect support, regardless of credentials.

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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
I have no dog in this fight, but it’s apparent to me that you’re simply being obtuse. There is lots of data that you could release without violating secrecy and privacy.

When I was in school, my maths teacher didn’t give marks for simply having the correct answer. You also had to show your work. ST is much the same way, around here if you want any credit for anything, you need to show your work. If you can’t do that, then don’t expect support, regardless of credentials.

The guy said I made up the science. I am asking for clarification.

As for the methods. There is an hour long video about it. Watch it at your leisure

HELLO HAMBINI FANS!!!
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [hambini] [ In reply to ]
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On a non-technical note, Flo Cycling have stated that the letter you claim to have received from their lawyers is not from them. How about providing some clarification on that?
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [el gato] [ In reply to ]
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el gato wrote:
On a non-technical note, Flo Cycling have stated that the letter you claim to have received from their lawyers is not from them. How about providing some clarification on that?

Well that’s super easy, like all things remotely related to this forum it’s Slowman’s fault!

“This letter was sent to a company address in the wrong country. Prior to receiving this letter, a member of the Slowtwitch forum called Dan Empfield sent me an email asking where I worked and eluded to the incorrect said country. I did not respond. Days later, a letter was received at the address in the wrong country. Pure Coincidence - unlikely?”

Quote from Hambini above, full text here:

https://www.hambini.com/...i-vs-flo-cycling.../

Maurice
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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That may explain why it took a circuitous route to get to him, but doesn't explain why he can't produce the original, un-redacted letter or why he claims his laywers are advising him not to speak to Flo. Not that I really care all that much - just another trigger on the "BS meter". Thankfully, I've never wasted a moment of my time watching any of his videos, and by the sound of it I haven't missed anything.
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [hambini] [ In reply to ]
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i was apprised that the following sits on your own site:

"This letter was sent to a company address in the wrong country. Prior to receiving this letter, a member of the Slowtwitch forum called Dan Empfield sent me an email asking where I worked and eluded [sic] to the incorrect said country. I did not respond. Days later, a letter was received at the address in the wrong country. Pure Coincidence - unlikely?"

yes i am a member of this forum community. I also founded and own this site. after you were already posting on this site i wrote you an email, to find out more about you. you responded. in total, i sent you 3 emails and you responded to all of them. i have provided you a welcome on this forum community, which has been my pleasure. if you are accusing me of some untoward act, what? specifically?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Nov 22, 19 17:56
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Why are you engaging this clown? Let him and his elementary math and physics bother another forum. He’s a waste of bandwidth

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [hambini] [ In reply to ]
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hambini wrote:
You are the one accusing me of making science up. I am asking you to prove the science in my videos is wrong, instead of making some blind BS up with no proof.

On the 2.5% error, that's the number, I can't change it and you seem to take offence at it?

Seriously? You are the one saying that everyone in the industry has been doing it wrong for decades, and you are doing it right. I'm cool with that, but you have to back it up with proof. You haven't made the tiniest movement in that direction. Your "evidence" amounts to "I'm a PhD and these are the numbers, don't question me." If you really had a PhD then you'd be well practiced in presenting your research so as to convince other engineers.

The +-2.5% error invalidates your conclusions, yet you still behave as though they are valid. Just another indication that it's all a show.
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Do marketing companies ever have proof that their product saves x amount of watts? I’ve noticed in the bike industry there is not a lot of 3rd party testing that gets published.

No one bats an eye when ceramicspeed buys frictionfacts but if someone does an independent wind tunnel test everyone loses their mind and becomes an expert in fluid dynamics. If I had to bet, 99% of the population hasn’t taken a college level engineering or fluid dynamics class.

Does anyone really think that some dimples save exuberant amount of energy? Why wouldn’t airplanes or fuel efficient cars have dimples to save energy then?
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [MrStealYoKOMs] [ In reply to ]
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This ain't about dimples. I'm talking about the massive wheel test he claimed he did a couple years ago; but instead it appears that he simply pulled a graph out of his butt to use as a talking point.

Everyone kind of expects manufacturers to exaggerate or skew results in their favor. Smart money always waits for independent verification, hopefully by more than one source. Hambini is the sort of creature who poses as an independent researcher/tester but just makes stuff up to promote his act. From what I can tell it's worked out great for him, too!
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [MrStealYoKOMs] [ In reply to ]
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MrStealYoKOMs wrote:
Do marketing companies ever have proof that their product saves x amount of watts? I’ve noticed in the bike industry there is not a lot of 3rd party testing that gets published.

No one bats an eye when ceramicspeed buys frictionfacts but if someone does an independent wind tunnel test everyone loses their mind and becomes an expert in fluid dynamics. If I had to bet, 99% of the population hasn’t taken a college level engineering or fluid dynamics class.

Does anyone really think that some dimples save exuberant amount of energy? Why wouldn’t airplanes or fuel efficient cars have dimples to save energy then?

You seem like the perfect target audience for these videos.
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [MrStealYoKOMs] [ In reply to ]
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The problem here is that he has been caught in lies multiple times over the past months.

Questioning the validity of work is relevant when lies and obfuscations have ruled the conversation.

People who do have expertise in these topics have questioned his work. Repeatedly he has declined to clarify for these people who do have the expertise.

I'm not an PhD in aerospace, but I do know when people aren't being clear.
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [MrStealYoKOMs] [ In reply to ]
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MrStealYoKOMs wrote:
Do marketing companies ever have proof that their product saves x amount of watts? I’ve noticed in the bike industry there is not a lot of 3rd party testing that gets published.

No one bats an eye when ceramicspeed buys frictionfacts but if someone does an independent wind tunnel test everyone loses their mind and becomes an expert in fluid dynamics. If I had to bet, 99% of the population hasn’t taken a college level engineering or fluid dynamics class.

Does anyone really think that some dimples save exuberant amount of energy? Why wouldn’t airplanes or fuel efficient cars have dimples to save energy then?

I freely admit I haven't taken a college level engineering or fluid dynamics class. I also admit that Hambini, could in fact, be right about dimples. I do, however, know something about critical thinking.

I suppose it's possible that Slowman is engaged in some sort of conspiracy with some alleged lawyer that was supposedly hired by Flo Cycling.

I suppose it's possible that Flo Cycling is lying about hiring a lawyer to send a threatening letter to Hambini that had many signs of fakery, including numerous typos, etc.

I suppose it's possible that Tom A. is a racist who used such an obscure racial epithet that no one can find evidence of it on the interwebs, and I suppose it's possible he's also in a conspiracy with Flo cycling and has sold his soul for a pair of wheels that were donated after his were stolen.

I suppose it's possible that numerous knowledgeable individuals who have questioned Hambini's data and methodologies, and received only deflection and ad hominem in return, don't know what they are talking about and/or have sold their souls to the bike industry for what are undoubtedly untold riches.

I suppose all of these are possible, but are they plausible? Not in the least.

I don't see a bunch of people losing their mind. I see a bunch of people who are challenging someone who is making extraordinary claims to back up those claims, and that person is leaving all kinds of red flags everywhere he goes.
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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The aerospace industry is very odd. As an engineering student, I’ve had some experience interning for a very large aerospace-defense company. From what I understand about Hambini, he works for/with Eurofighter. He probably has his hands tied due to the nature of his career about certain details and testing procedures. Engineering is very cut-throat because as the saying goes, if you’re not first, you’re last. I also don’t think Hambini did these wheel test as an official 3rd party verification. He was probably just interested in what works the best. The bike industry, and consumers as a whole, are LEAGUES behind military and NASA in terms of aerospace tech. General rule to thumb is NASA has a technology 10-15 years before consumers do.

Also, Hambini makes videos, I don’t think people want to be lectured on multi-variable calculus and NACA-2412 airfoils, because trust me... it’s boring. I don’t know much about Hambini but if he’s designing parts for Eurofighter he can probably design/machine a decent bottom bracket.
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [MrStealYoKOMs] [ In reply to ]
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And fake a decent lawyers letter.
(do they have spell check in Europe)
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
The +-2.5% error invalidates your conclusions, yet you still behave as though they are valid. Just another indication that it's all a show.

You know, I’d never run the numbers on the error % simply because anything associated with this guy seems a waste of time. But off the top of my head with a CdA of .25 2.5% is .00625. So turning that into “grams of drag” it’s roughly +/- 60. Most wheels max out at around 120grams when tested alone. So yeah, there is nothing but a giant pile of garbage there.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Wait a sec... he’s testing the entire system, bike rider and wheels, and getting 2.5% error bars on that system, and then trying to tease out some differences on a small component of that overall system?

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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Wait a sec... he’s testing the entire system, bike rider and wheels, and getting 2.5% error bars on that system, and then trying to tease out some differences on a small component of that overall system?

Correct



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [MrStealYoKOMs] [ In reply to ]
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MrStealYoKOMs wrote:
The aerospace industry is very odd. As an engineering student, I’ve had some experience interning for a very large aerospace-defense company. From what I understand about Hambini, he works for/with Eurofighter. He probably has his hands tied due to the nature of his career about certain details and testing procedures. Engineering is very cut-throat because as the saying goes, if you’re not first, you’re last. I also don’t think Hambini did these wheel test as an official 3rd party verification. He was probably just interested in what works the best. The bike industry, and consumers as a whole, are LEAGUES behind military and NASA in terms of aerospace tech. General rule to thumb is NASA has a technology 10-15 years before consumers do.

Also, Hambini makes videos, I don’t think people want to be lectured on multi-variable calculus and NACA-2412 airfoils, because trust me... it’s boring. I don’t know much about Hambini but if he’s designing parts for Eurofighter he can probably design/machine a decent bottom bracket.

I think you will have a very different opinion after you start working in the industry.

You will learn how technology of industries is shaped by the requirements of that industry, In aerospace you have large budgets and a big push for performance (in terms of things like weight and volume). But you also have very strict requirements for things like safety. You don't want your structure to break or your sensors to miss the mountain that you are flying towards. So the aerospace industry has some neat technology, but the bike industry is able to some things that the aerospace industry can't really do. For example with composites, the bike industry does some very neat things that result in very high performance, but aerospace can't really do the same thing because they could can't currently inspect the material to know that it was built the way to achieve that performance with high enough confidence. The bike industry does not require that high level of confidence, so it allows some things that aerospace can't really do. On the other hand the bike industry does not need to develop composites that can be used in extreme temperatures or the vacuum of space.

Another example are sensor technologies. The aerospace industry is obviously ahead in some areas. But in other areas automotive is arguably more advanced or getting close. The aerospace industry demonstrated some of these technologies using their large budgets and need for these technologies. Then the automotive industry wants to do something different, so they develop similar sensors, but using technology that allows for much lower costs. The the automotive industry then builds orders of magnitude more of these parts, which quickly matures the technology that would never happen in aerospace. So automotive then has technology that aerospace does not have, sure it may not be as high performance, but it is orders of magnitude cheaper and many times more reliable.

Remember that technology to make things cheaper is also technology
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [MrStealYoKOMs] [ In reply to ]
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MrStealYoKOMs wrote:
The aerospace industry is very odd. As an engineering student, I’ve had some experience interning for a very large aerospace-defense company. From what I understand about Hambini, he works for/with Eurofighter. He probably has his hands tied due to the nature of his career about certain details and testing procedures. Engineering is very cut-throat because as the saying goes, if you’re not first, you’re last. I also don’t think Hambini did these wheel test as an official 3rd party verification. He was probably just interested in what works the best. The bike industry, and consumers as a whole, are LEAGUES behind military and NASA in terms of aerospace tech. General rule to thumb is NASA has a technology 10-15 years before consumers do.

Also, Hambini makes videos, I don’t think people want to be lectured on multi-variable calculus and NACA-2412 airfoils, because trust me... it’s boring. I don’t know much about Hambini but if he’s designing parts for Eurofighter he can probably design/machine a decent bottom bracket.


Before deciding that my path lay in entrepreneurship, I worked as an aerospace engineer on the International Space Station as a contractor to NASA. I also worked on satellites for APL and Johns Hopkins University. I can tell you that while there are some brilliant people working there, there are some complete dolts as well. Hell, they let me work there. There are brilliant people working in commercial industry too, and in cycling in particular. You think Jean-Paul Ballard doesn't know his shit about aerodynamics? Lewis Hamilton makes TWICE the salary of the CEO of Boeing. You don't think the Merc F1 team can afford the best aerodynamics experts money can buy?

As for NASA having tech 10-15 years before consumers, this is largely only true to the extent that they are willing to fund research projects for technology that no one knows if it will work because their interest is purely in research - they do not have to make a profit. Some of those technologies prove themselves out, and eventually industry invests in them and often drastically improves them. Others fail completely and we never hear about it. (edit to make it clear that i think that this is VERY valuable - just the reason for it is not because they are smarter than people that have to make money for a living)

Though I've never worked on defense stuff, I've known lots of people with security clearances. Some of them can say, yeah, I work on radar systems for the F-16, but they just can't give any more details than that. I've known others that worked on projects for which they had to have a completely unrelated cover story and no one knew what they did until years later. I can guarantee that publicly claiming to steal wind tunnel time and forging legal documents to defame companies would be a VERY quick way to lose a security clearance and your career. People with those kinds of jobs don't often do that kind of nutty stuff.

I've worked with great engineers, mediocre engineers, old, young, I've had graduate level engineers from Stanford and MIT working for me. I've worked in aerospace, trucking, powertrain and now cycling - and if challenged on their data or their solution to a problem or a design, one thing is very consistent among all of them. They respond with logic, data and math - not deflection and personal attacks.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Last edited by: RowToTri: Nov 23, 19 14:53
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
MrStealYoKOMs wrote:
The aerospace industry is very odd. As an engineering student, I’ve had some experience interning for a very large aerospace-defense company. From what I understand about Hambini, he works for/with Eurofighter. He probably has his hands tied due to the nature of his career about certain details and testing procedures. Engineering is very cut-throat because as the saying goes, if you’re not first, you’re last. I also don’t think Hambini did these wheel test as an official 3rd party verification. He was probably just interested in what works the best. The bike industry, and consumers as a whole, are LEAGUES behind military and NASA in terms of aerospace tech. General rule to thumb is NASA has a technology 10-15 years before consumers do.

Also, Hambini makes videos, I don’t think people want to be lectured on multi-variable calculus and NACA-2412 airfoils, because trust me... it’s boring. I don’t know much about Hambini but if he’s designing parts for Eurofighter he can probably design/machine a decent bottom bracket.

I think you will have a very different opinion after you start working in the industry.

You will learn how technology of industries is shaped by the requirements of that industry, In aerospace you have large budgets and a big push for performance (in terms of things like weight and volume). But you also have very strict requirements for things like safety. You don't want your structure to break or your sensors to miss the mountain that you are flying towards. So the aerospace industry has some neat technology, but the bike industry is able to some things that the aerospace industry can't really do. For example with composites, the bike industry does some very neat things that result in very high performance, but aerospace can't really do the same thing because they could can't currently inspect the material to know that it was built the way to achieve that performance with high enough confidence. The bike industry does not require that high level of confidence, so it allows some things that aerospace can't really do. On the other hand the bike industry does not need to develop composites that can be used in extreme temperatures or the vacuum of space.

Another example are sensor technologies. The aerospace industry is obviously ahead in some areas. But in other areas automotive is arguably more advanced or getting close. The aerospace industry demonstrated some of these technologies using their large budgets and need for these technologies. Then the automotive industry wants to do something different, so they develop similar sensors, but using technology that allows for much lower costs. The the automotive industry then builds orders of magnitude more of these parts, which quickly matures the technology that would never happen in aerospace. So automotive then has technology that aerospace does not have, sure it may not be as high performance, but it is orders of magnitude cheaper and many times more reliable.

Remember that technology to make things cheaper is also technology


Bruh.... the Boeing 787 Dreamliner is 50% Composite... the aerospace industry is leagues above the bike industry in engineering understanding. If it wasn’t leagues above then why does the cycling marketing teams always call their composites F1 grade or aerospace grade carbon?

In aerospace, the stresses of flight are calculated. The part is either over-engineered to last the lifetime of the airframe or designed to last a certain amount of flight hours/pressurization cycles until it needs replacement.
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
I've worked in aerospace, trucking, powertrain and now cycling - and if challenged on their data or their solution to a problem or a design, one thing is very consistent among all of them. They respond with logic, data and math - not deflection and personal attacks.

Exactly. One of the most refreshing things about science is that BS doesn't get you far.
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Re: Hambini's take on Zipp Dimples ROFL [MrStealYoKOMs] [ In reply to ]
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MrStealYoKOMs wrote:

Bruh.... the Boeing 787 Dreamliner is 50% Composite... the aerospace industry is leagues above the bike industry in engineering understanding. If it wasn’t leagues above then why does the cycling marketing teams always call their composites F1 grade or aerospace grade carbon?

In aerospace, the stresses of flight are calculated. The part is either over-engineered to last the lifetime of the airframe or designed to last a certain amount of flight hours/pressurization cycles until it needs replacement.


Bruh... if this is your argument that aero is more capable than any other industry you have a lot to learn. Everyone who graduates with a bachelors degree in mechanical engineering can do FEA stress analysis and design for fatigue/life with a defined factor of safety (BTW, in aero you DEFINITELY do not "over-engineer"). And every bicycle we buy has had that analysis done on it or they are asking for lawsuits galore.

The gal at Rolls-Royce or Pratt and Whitney that improves the efficiency of the compressor and the turbine assemblies across all stages of flight from takeoff to landing while simultaneously reducing heat loss... THAT person is a genius. But she might decide that having the success of her work depend on not only the success of 1000 other randos and 8 different companies, but also 10 different bureaucracies with 200 different bureaucrats who don't understand anything you do totally sucks. She could very well decide to jump ship to a small bike company (or start her own) and be able to control her own project and depend on a small team of people she trusts.

If you go around as an aero guy that you are better than everyone else, you are going to have a serious crisis when you meet the guy that designs sewage pumps and realize he is WAY smarter than you.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Last edited by: RowToTri: Nov 23, 19 15:59
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