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Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points...
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Pretty interesting article with some interesting points....

"
PEZ: How about watts?
This one will shock your readers: I averaged 251W. Not a typo. What needs to be explained is that I rode a very wave like pattern during the effort: I was riding 270-290w in the corners, and 220-240w in the straights. This meant my average was lower than my FTP (functional threshold power) but I was maximizing my speed. I was completely shattered at the finish, so riding at my FTP or not, it was what I could do in the ride. Obviously, I am a pretty aero rider."

"PEZ: Any 'bad patches’?
At 40 minutes in, things get pretty dark. Even though you have support and people cheering and your family sending you good energy from home, it is a very lonely place. It’s an act of sheer will. You just have to make yourself do it. My hamstrings and back were in pretty severe pain for the last 20 minutes. I couldn’t sit for about three hours afterwards, I just paced in anti-doping."
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder if his PM is calibrated on the low side. Some STers seem to have this as well - they put out like ridiculously low wattage for speed despite being normal range weight/size, and their power seems very disproportionately low also stacked up against their run performance.
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan will soon be quoting Colby Pearce wind tunnel data from Texas A & M tunnel in the 90's. One thing is for certain, Colby Pearce has always been extraordinarily aerodynamic.
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
I wonder if his PM is calibrated on the low side. Some STers seem to have this as well - they put out like ridiculously low wattage for speed despite being normal range weight/size, and their power seems very disproportionately low also stacked up against their run performance.

It's also at altitude. I think MTM averaged barely over 300W? I'd imagine Colby's FTP in ideal testing conditions is closer to 400W than 300W.

Also riding an hour on the track is just really, really hard. I have no problem doing it on the road. The track can just get brutal. You don't realize how important those occasional 3-4 seconds of freewheeling through turns, etc, are until you don't get to do it anymore.
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [kbd] [ In reply to ]
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kbd wrote:
Andrew Coggan will soon be quoting Colby Pearce wind tunnel data from Texas A & M tunnel in the 90's. One thing is for certain, Colby Pearce has always been extraordinarily aerodynamic.

That helps, although still, in the absence of PM data, I would still query whether the PM is reading low. 250 watts for an hour is NOT a heroically strong effort, even for a sub Cat-5 bike racer, so it strikes me as bizarre that Colby describes the 40 minute mark as 'so difficult', when 250 watts x 60 minutes legit would barely even be a moderate effort for a typical top-class cyclist, even if he has the world's best aerodynamics.
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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Colby is pretty slippery to start with, but also important to note that 251w in Aguascalientes is closer to 300 at Sea level. Also as he mentions the accelerations on the track, it feels very, very different than just holding 251w avg on a straight road.

*Edit - Running through some estimates for Aguas, I get about 275w (sea level) with a crr of .0023 and a cda of ~.175

Definitely an amazing ride though, very impressive beating his distance set in 95!

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
Last edited by: Morelock: Oct 5, 18 3:26
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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ggeiger wrote:
Pretty interesting article with some interesting points....

"
PEZ: How about watts?
This one will shock your readers: I averaged 251W. Not a typo. What needs to be explained is that I rode a very wave like pattern during the effort: I was riding 270-290w in the corners, and 220-240w in the straights. This meant my average was lower than my FTP (functional threshold power) but I was maximizing my speed. I was completely shattered at the finish, so riding at my FTP or not, it was what I could do in the ride. Obviously, I am a pretty aero rider."

The followup question then should've been "What was the Normalized Power?" ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I wonder if his PM is calibrated on the low side. Some STers seem to have this as well - they put out like ridiculously low wattage for speed despite being normal range weight/size, and their power seems very disproportionately low also stacked up against their run performance.


It's also at altitude. I think MTM averaged barely over 300W? I'd imagine Colby's FTP in ideal testing conditions is closer to 400W than 300W.

Also riding an hour on the track is just really, really hard. I have no problem doing it on the road. The track can just get brutal. You don't realize how important those occasional 3-4 seconds of freewheeling through turns, etc, are until you don't get to do it anymore.

Altitude is worth ~5-12% I think not 25-33%

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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
I wonder if his PM is calibrated on the low side. Some STers seem to have this as well - they put out like ridiculously low wattage for speed despite being normal range weight/size, and their power seems very disproportionately low also stacked up against their run performance.

While mis-calibration is possible, even with all the attention to aerodynamics on this forum some of you don't fully understand how much is possible with really good aerodynamics, at least on flat courses. I'm one of those people posting very low wattage for my speed. I use a Quarq PM that's been verified using a known weight a number of times, and it's been very consistent. But I started out as a time trialist, I've been refining my position for 15 years, have done Chung VE testing and taken a trip to a wind tunnel (the VE testing was more useful in the long run). I have very good equipment although I've spent a lot less on it than some of you. I also suspect that 35 years of being a roadie has taught me good pacing and how to use my limited power to best effect.

But as long as people think it takes some sort of magic to get such good power/speed ratios, and they go and do a one hour fit at the local bike shop and are done, I'll keep placing much higher on the bike leg than I really should.
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [Jordano] [ In reply to ]
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Jordano wrote:

Altitude is worth ~5-12% I think not 25-33%

Yes, I was presenting it as part of the story, not the whole story.
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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For more on the record check out the latest Fast Talk podcast:
https://www.velonews.com/...-colby-pearce_479619
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
I'd imagine Colby's FTP in ideal testing conditions is closer to 400W than 300W.

Colby only averaged 300 W (+/- maybe 5 W) when he set the US hour record in the mid-1990s (at similar altitude).* Given that he is now a couple decades older, 250 W makes perfect sense.

Remember, he is significantly smaller than the average male cyclist, and quite aero (i.e., CdA of 0.19 m^2 even when using drop bars).

The other thing he had going for him is track-riding skill. Compared to others who rode the same block of days, he was machine, always glued to the black line. It was the same when he and wife trained together in LA in 2007...he could comfortably ride only a couple of centimeters off of her rear wheel, never wavering.

Finally, once upon a time I analyzed some data for him, from experiments he had done trying to determine the best approach to applying power on the track. I could not definitively say what was best, but obviously he is still a believer in "power the turns and float the straights".

*At the time, his VO2max was just over 70 mL/min/kg, with his LT being ~75% of VO2max. His cycling economy/efficiency was good, but not exceptional.
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
ggeiger wrote:
Pretty interesting article with some interesting points....

"
PEZ: How about watts?
This one will shock your readers: I averaged 251W. Not a typo. What needs to be explained is that I rode a very wave like pattern during the effort: I was riding 270-290w in the corners, and 220-240w in the straights. This meant my average was lower than my FTP (functional threshold power) but I was maximizing my speed. I was completely shattered at the finish, so riding at my FTP or not, it was what I could do in the ride. Obviously, I am a pretty aero rider."


The followup question then should've been "What was the Normalized Power?" ;-)
Given the frequency of power fluctuations is ~9 seconds, I expect it would be pretty much the same as average power.

It's also worth noting that the turns represent much greater proportion of the track length than the straights, a bit over 70% typically. But if you take out what I call the transitional sections then the turns are ~45% of the lap, transitions ~25%, straights ~30%. Give or take a few % depending on track geometry.

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http://www.aerocoach.com.au
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
trail wrote:
I'd imagine Colby's FTP in ideal testing conditions is closer to 400W than 300W.


Colby only averaged 300 W (+/- maybe 5 W) when he set the US hour record in the mid-1990s (at similar altitude).* Given that he is now a couple decades older, 250 W makes perfect sense.

Remember, he is significantly smaller than the average male cyclist, and quite aero (i.e., CdA of 0.19 m^2 even when using drop bars).

The other thing he had going for him is track-riding skill. Compared to others who rode the same block of days, he was machine, always glued to the black line. It was the same when he and wife trained together in LA in 2007...he could comfortably ride only a couple of centimeters off of her rear wheel, never wavering.

Finally, once upon a time I analyzed some data for him, from experiments he had done trying to determine the best approach to applying power on the track. I could not definitively say what was best, but obviously he is still a believer in "power the turns and float the straights".

*At the time, his VO2max was just over 70 mL/min/kg, with his LT being ~75% of VO2max. His cycling economy/efficiency was good, but not exceptional.

A *rough* estimate is ~0.17m^2.

I've seen track CdA in that range before. Some people are aerodynamically gifted.

http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [AlexS] [ In reply to ]
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AlexS wrote:
A *rough* estimate is ~0.17m^2. I've seen track CdA in that range before. Some people are aerodynamically gifted.

Very believable for someone his size on the track.
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
I wonder if his PM is calibrated on the low side. Some STers seem to have this as well - they put out like ridiculously low wattage for speed despite being normal range weight/size, and their power seems very disproportionately low also stacked up against their run performance.

Aguascalientes is at about 6,000' so add 10% or so to his power for sea level numbers. Also, riding for an hour on a 250 meter track is nothing like on the road, or even a 333 meter track.

For example, last year in June I averaged 315W for 50 minutes at our district TT in Loyalton (4900'), then a month later, 285 for my hour record in Aguascalientes. Over the course of my 196 laps I went through 392 micro accelerations. That takes a toll after a while. The effort level was much harder on the 250m track than the two test hours I rode at Hellyer (335 meters). Night and day really.

Note that on a 250m track your center of mass is actually riding less than 250m per lap due to the banking. Also note that this is the cause of those accelerations in the corner. Probably a 4rpm difference twice a lap.

Next time you do a 40km TT bump your cadence up by 4 rpm for about 4 seconds, every 9 seconds and see what that does to you average power.

Also, Colby is extremely aero and he's a small guy, maybe 60 kg.

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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Cool, makes sense in that context, thx for the helpful input!
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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nslckevin wrote:
The effort level was much harder on the 250m track than the two test hours I rode at Hellyer (335 meters). Night and day really.

If it's that much harder on 250m, then wouldn't CO Springs be better?
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
nslckevin wrote:
The effort level was much harder on the 250m track than the two test hours I rode at Hellyer (335 meters). Night and day really.

If it's that much harder on 250m, then wouldn't CO Springs be better?
.

I suspect it’s fairly close. Rob Van Houweling has some air density data that show COS as slightly slower. Slightly lower and they pressurize the dome a bit. Also the track is not nearly as smooth as Aguascalientes. That said, Norm Alvis went quite fast there last fall.

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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Makes sense that the air density is a little higher, but you are in that zone where it hardly matters... especially for someone who isn't acclimated. And if negotiating the turns is that big a deal, then it should be beneficial for someone with minimal track experience. Would it be enough to offset the slightly higher Crr?
If you haven't seen Pearce's ride, he was incredibly smooth. Obvious that he is very at home on the track.
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Makes sense that the air density is a little higher, but you are in that zone where it hardly matters... especially for someone who isn't acclimated. And if negotiating the turns is that big a deal, then it should be beneficial for someone with minimal track experience. Would it be enough to offset the slightly higher Crr?
If you haven't seen Pearce's ride, he was incredibly smooth. Obvious that he is very at home on the track.

He was in Aguascalientes with us last year working as Molly's coach. He also made some attempts on some shorter records (1km and 3km I believe). Anyway, I agree, he looks REALLY good on a pursuit bike. In fact he was on the track this afternoon in LA at the same time as me. He just looks really good and smooth. I want to be more like Colby for sure in my pursuit on Monday...

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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nslckevin wrote:
lightheir wrote:
Over the course of my 196 laps I went through 392 micro accelerations. That takes a toll after a while. The effort level was much harder on the 250m track than the two test hours I rode at Hellyer (335 meters). Night and day really.

Note that on a 250m track your center of mass is actually riding less than 250m per lap due to the banking. Also note that this is the cause of those accelerations in the corner. Probably a 4rpm difference twice a lap.

Next time you do a 40km TT bump your cadence up by 4 rpm for about 4 seconds, every 9 seconds and see what that does to you average power.
Wheel speed and cadence rises in the bends for the reasons you describe, but surely KE can remain constant at isopower and torso speed sees much smaller fluctuations? It's not the same as similar cadence fluctuations on a straight TT, more like getting 4% wheelslip if you rode on muddy patches intermittently vs tarmac.
Relatively straightforward to calculate torso velocity for known wheelspeed on the black line, has anybody attempted to verify actual energy transfers?
My velodrome experience is limited to just scraping under 5 minutes for 4k pursuit.
Last edited by: dontswimdontrun: Oct 6, 18 3:07
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [dontswimdontrun] [ In reply to ]
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dontswimdontrun wrote:
nslckevin wrote:
lightheir wrote:
Over the course of my 196 laps I went through 392 micro accelerations. That takes a toll after a while. The effort level was much harder on the 250m track than the two test hours I rode at Hellyer (335 meters). Night and day really.


Note that on a 250m track your center of mass is actually riding less than 250m per lap due to the banking. Also note that this is the cause of those accelerations in the corner. Probably a 4rpm difference twice a lap.

Next time you do a 40km TT bump your cadence up by 4 rpm for about 4 seconds, every 9 seconds and see what that does to you average power.
Wheel speed and cadence rises in the bends for the reasons you describe, but surely KE can remain constant at isopower and torso speed sees much smaller fluctuations? It's not the same as similar cadence fluctuations on a straight TT, more like getting 4% wheelslip if you rode on muddy patches intermittently vs tarmac.
Relatively straightforward to calculate torso velocity for known wheelspeed on the black line, has anybody attempted to verify actual energy transfers?
My velodrome experience is limited to just scraping under 5 minutes for 4k pursuit.


I think that the catch is that you don't get to make a U-turn at 30 mph for free. I think that the geometry of the track makes it very low cost compared to say turning around a cone in the road, but still not free. When I was testing gearing at Aguascalientes I wanted to run a 53x14. That was a good gear for the distance I was looking for, but it felt too heavy on the straights after going through the corner. After getting what felt like a free assist through the corner, hitting the straight felt like I was on a 1-2% rise. I realized that I couldn't handle 60 minutes of that and switched down to a 52x14.

BTW, here is a video of Colby's hour. It should be cued to his start, but if not scroll forward to 35:00.





Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [dontswimdontrun] [ In reply to ]
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The physics has been modeled a fair bit, starting with Jim Martin's work.
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Re: Good article about Colby Pearce and his masters hour record.... Some VERY interesting points... [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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nslckevin wrote:
I think that the catch is that you don't get to make a U-turn at 30 mph for free. I think that the geometry of the track makes it very low cost compared to say turning around a cone in the road, but still not free.

Indeed, the increase in rolling resistance due to the increase in centripetal force combined with a bit of scrub angle (unless you are at the"magic" speed for that banking) essentially negates the benefit of getting credit for wheel vs. COM speed, making the physics pretty much a wash. It therefore comes down to the impact of the fluctuations in cadence and power on the individual's physiology.
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