A few disjointed thoughts after wading through all of this:

1. I am the 30th slowtwitch user to weigh in on this thread, and I *believe* I am the third female slowtwitch user to do so (I think I sussed out that Trizebbie and Island are female, apologies if I misgendered anybody in scanning the posts). So a thread purportedly about something that would impact women's sports is wholly dominated by...not women. Of course all humans can have input on this discussion and can have thoughts, but it is definitely illustrative that 90% of the discussion participants aren't female.

2. As I swam in college, *many* men approached me earlier this year to ask me what I thought about Lia Thomas. Most of these men were, shall I say, less accepting of the LGBTQIA+ community than I or most of my friends are. In several cases, there was a smug undertone of "I bet I caught you on something where you don't support trans women." My response was always "She followed the rules of the appropriate governing bodies and is fully free to compete and I support her right to do so. Those rules were more or less based on the Stockholm consensus from 2003 which was developed by some of the brightest minds in sports physiology and other relevant fields. It is possible that their findings should be reexamined with new data and research, but that reexamination should be done by other world renowned experts, and in the meantime, the current rules stand." Every single man who came to me with this question was surprised that this was my response and most of them tried to convince me that my viewpoint was wrong. Again, interesting and illustrative.

3. Personally, as a relatively competitive age group triathlete (regularly qualifying for world championship races and making the podium at local/regional races), I welcome all women, including trans women competing under the rules that govern their participation. Out of the literal thousands of women who have beaten me in sport over the years, probabilistically, a few of them were likely trans. Cool. Welcome to the very large club of women who are better than me in sport.

4. It is also extremely interesting to me that nobody ever mentions trans men in sport. As Ryan noted earlier, "I don't think anybody batted an eye when Chris Mosier transitioned." I happen to be involved with the sport of artistic (synchronized) swimming as a coach/official, and this is a sport where the women's field is MUCH more competitive, and a sport where those born as women have distinct physiological advantages in several aspects of competition, most notably, greater flexibility. I have literally not once heard anybody suggest that trans men will take over the events with male competitors.

It's ALMOST like this isn't about sport for most people, but is instead about policing women's bodies.

A few disjointed thoughts after wading through all of this:

1. I am the 30th slowtwitch user to weigh in on this thread, and I *believe* I am the third female slowtwitch user to do so (I think I sussed out that Trizebbie and Island are female, apologies if I misgendered anybody in scanning the posts). So a thread purportedly about something that would impact women's sports is wholly dominated by...not women. Of course all humans can have input on this discussion and can have thoughts, but it is definitely illustrative that 90% of the discussion participants aren't female.

2. As I swam in college, *many* men approached me earlier this year to ask me what I thought about Lia Thomas. Most of these men were, shall I say, less accepting of the LGBTQIA+ community than I or most of my friends are. In several cases, there was a smug undertone of "I bet I caught you on something where you don't support trans women." My response was always "She followed the rules of the appropriate governing bodies and is fully free to compete and I support her right to do so. Those rules were more or less based on the Stockholm consensus from 2003 which was developed by some of the brightest minds in sports physiology and other relevant fields. It is possible that their findings should be reexamined with new data and research, but that reexamination should be done by other world renowned experts, and in the meantime, the current rules stand." Every single man who came to me with this question was surprised that this was my response and most of them tried to convince me that my viewpoint was wrong. Again, interesting and illustrative.

3. Personally, as a relatively competitive age group triathlete (regularly qualifying for world championship races and making the podium at local/regional races), I welcome all women, including trans women competing under the rules that govern their participation. Out of the literal thousands of women who have beaten me in sport over the years, probabilistically, a few of them were likely trans. Cool. Welcome to the very large club of women who are better than me in sport.

4. It is also extremely interesting to me that nobody ever mentions trans men in sport. As Ryan noted earlier, "I don't think anybody batted an eye when Chris Mosier transitioned." I happen to be involved with the sport of artistic (synchronized) swimming as a coach/official, and this is a sport where the women's field is MUCH more competitive, and a sport where those born as women have distinct physiological advantages in several aspects of competition, most notably, greater flexibility. I have literally not once heard anybody suggest that trans men will take over the events with male competitors.

It's ALMOST like this isn't about sport for most people, but is instead about policing women's bodies.

Or...and this may be too radical for some...you could just believe what women say.

From my perspective (female, mid-level athlete), the reason we don’t hear many women’s voices on this issue is because the backlash is frequently so ferocious when we speak against transwomen competing in women’s sports. Any statement less than ardent support in favor pretty much results in being called transphobic, hateful, and a TERF. Among my female athlete friends (also in a fairly liberal East Coast city), virtually everyone I know (predominantly but not exclusively liberal) doesn’t think transwomen should compete in women’s sports for all the obvious reasons to do with physiology that have been stated previously in this thread. Some variance on what level this should be at at, e.g. elite v amateur. Definitely not ambivalent though. In my circle, we’re all for everyone living their lives however they want, using whatever bathroom, pronouns, etc. but feel very hesitant to express our views on the issue of transwomen in sports publicly. TBH if I were posting here under my own name I probably wouldn’t have said anything for fear. I do appreciate that this thread has got five pages deep with the exchange of strongly held views but hasn’t descended (yet) into name calling and attacking.

Unfortunately I couldn't track find a survey with a by-gender input breakdown, but the most recent major survey only shows about 30% in favor of trans athletes in sports. This does not align at all with the elevated viewpoints I hear from women, who overwhelmingly say that they support trans athletes no matter what. Even if 100% of men oppose that still leaves 40% of women opposing as well. Something is not lining up between anonymous surveys and public statements with your name behind them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/...letes-female-sports/

From my perspective (female, mid-level athlete), the reason we don’t hear many women’s voices on this issue is because the backlash is frequently so ferocious when we speak against transwomen competing in women’s sports. Any statement less than ardent support in favor pretty much results in being called transphobic, hateful, and a TERF. Among my female athlete friends (also in a fairly liberal East Coast city), virtually everyone I know (predominantly but not exclusively liberal) doesn’t think transwomen should compete in women’s sports for all the obvious reasons to do with physiology that have been stated previously in this thread. Some variance on what level this should be at at, e.g. elite v amateur. Definitely not ambivalent though. In my circle, we’re all for everyone living their lives however they want, using whatever bathroom, pronouns, etc. but feel very hesitant to express our views on the issue of transwomen in sports publicly. TBH if I were posting here under my own name I probably wouldn’t have said anything for fear. I do appreciate that this thread has got five pages deep with the exchange of strongly held views but hasn’t descended (yet) into name calling and attacking.

4 men are welcoming to women good enough to compete. Although.. I question the allowed T levels for f2m as age increases. Males drop over time. Using average male level 400 as standard and at 40 they will be 200 or lower... Now this person at 400 is doping competing at 40+

This assumes we aren't doing that already. My views and perspectives on this topic are mostly driven by what I hear from my wife, daughter, extended family and female friends & associates who participate in sports at various levels (from pro cyclist and triathletes down to recreational runners). Their views are not homogeneous and cover the spectrum. I (a male) am not advocating for a level playing field because it will benefit me. I am advocating for a level playing field because a majority of the women I know who compete in sports also want that. In small circles, many of the women I know will express their concerns and frustrations on this topic (if it comes up), but publicly many of them choose not to comment or speak up for fear of backlash. Don't let your assumptions lead you to being close-minded

Absolutely!!

There is definitely a very silent majority, because cancel culture these days destroys lives.

In any case, re: cancel culture, it is important to express what one's view is - if it is that transwomen can compete in sport but they should have their own division, super. If that opinion is instead expressed as "she's a man" then nope, not ok.

This assumes we aren't doing that already. My views and perspectives on this topic are mostly driven by what I hear from my wife, daughter, extended family and female friends & associates who participate in sports at various levels (from pro cyclist and triathletes down to recreational runners). Their views are not homogeneous and cover the spectrum. I (a male) am not advocating for a level playing field because it will benefit me. I am advocating for a level playing field because a majority of the women I know who compete in sports also want that. In small circles, many of the women I know will express their concerns and frustrations on this topic (if it comes up), but publicly many of them choose not to comment or speak up for fear of backlash. Don't let your assumptions lead you to being close-minded

I'm not sure it's that silent, nor a majority, among female athletes. In any case, re: cancel culture, it is important to express what one's view is - if it is that transwomen can compete in sport but they should have their own division, super. If that opinion is instead expressed as "she's a man" then nope, not ok.

Exactly this. I don't know of a single person, male or female, who thinks that males should compete in female competitions. But as a general rule they won't speak up other than with someone they know shares the same view. There is simply too much risk these days of being labelled a bigot or a transphobe etc.
.

Why do you get to decide what is open for discussion? Gender as a social construct is a relatively new concept which not everyone agrees with. The concept is only supported by what could be described as pseudoscience.

This thread/discussion isn't about males competing in female competitions. It's about trans women in sport.

Oh you can discuss it, and you can also expect to be firmly corrected because misgendering people is rude.

Do you know anybody who goes by a name other than their legal first name? Do you use that name because they ask you to?

A reminder that we do not do the "males competing in female competitions" thing here.

Refer to trans women as such.

Table stakes. Thank you.

I absolutely have no problem with people living what ever gender and pronouns they wish (see I feel I have to clarify this in a cancel culture world) - but it is interesting to think about, at what point is someone’s opinion valid in a debate or not? What is the cut off line and who decides it?

I think we've been pretty clear on this, from the Lia threads to now: for the purposes of any discussion on transgender women in sport (because, let's face it, nobody gives two shits about transgender men in sport), when referring to the athletes in question you say "trans woman/women."

Because it quite naturally infers born sex but is also not offensive to trans women.

Those be the rules of the sandbox.

Herein lies the problem with these topics. The "table stakes" as you always go on about are based on your "sensibilities" which are completely unscientific. It is about your feelings which are biased due to your leftist ideology.

Male/female are not controversial terms. If you can't be an adult and discuss this topic using the only terms which cannot change due to someone's self identity, perhaps it is you who needs to exclude yourself. This isn't the first thread you as a moderator have derailed the conversation more than the people you are moderating.