Any reason not to have a more "traditional" triathlon closure system? From what I've seen with other people's custom shoes (and as you said yourself in the vid) the custom fit holds the foot basically by itself, and maybe some velcro is all you need? In my mind I'm seeing a shoe a bit like the Bont Zero+, but with a large, velcro flap as the only closure mechanism.

The zipper sounds like a neat option but doesn't seem to have any further micro-adjustment option - maybe having that as the main closure mechanism (binary on/off) with one side as a floating design that can be further tightened? Alternatively, maybe it's possible to get creative with the BOA cables to get a faster cable pull, or just a design where the closing flap doesn't need to move as much? Have a look at the DMT T1 for inspiration, they look like a pretty neat idea.

I have to admit I didn't quite understand the idea behind the c-clip.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

I think it would be cool if you had a boa powered by a wirelessly controlled motor close the second shoe you show. Just slip your feet in and press a button and you're good to go. The motor/battery/hardware could be mounted to the shoe in such a way that it forms a fairing behind the cleat to clean up that portion of the shoe aerodynamically. I'm sure the guy from X-Shifter (kickstarter) could work out the motor and wireless hardware.

One more idea: have you considered using the "tri" design with a leather cover and a traditional ratchet closure? The buckle portion would be located near the top-center of the closed leather cover and the ratchet belt could hold the cover open. Food for thought.

I agree. People really want adjustability. Largely, I think you may still be "thinking in leather" vs "thinking in carbon". My shoes are perfectly molded to my feet and even when my feet swell, I'm not noticing the need to tighten or loosen the shoe. But, Dave says his serious athletes do have swelling issues and need adjustability.

But, to address your suggestion, Nike has made such a system for their Back to the Future shoe:


And then there is BOA Revofit, which works with full carbon systems: http://www.boatechnology.com/...rthotics-prosthetics

but again, I'm not completely sold on the adjustability aspect

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velcro is definitely an easy option, and not a bad one, though velcro wears out and doesn't allow for "micro" adjustments. boa is a bit too easy, it takes too long to tighten, it isn't aero (without a heat-trapping leather cover, re: Bont

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Ratchets are good for carbon because you get more leverage than with a dial...

But, to get your foot in, you have to remove the strip from the ratchet and then realign and tighten in, which is difficult in a tri. My first road shoes with Sidi and I used them in tri's in the early 2000's and it was a PIA!

Another idea Simmons has tried is to use very stiff carbon and use just the 'toothed' strip on the underside of the upper and lower so they meet up, allow the user to push on the lid for micro tightening, but lateral forces can cause the strips to disengage, so that's a no-go.

Thanks for the ideas!!

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Ok, idea: revofit with heel boa but the wires in the carbon pull in the edges of the zipper and don't cross the slit in the shoe. The user zips up and uses the boa to pull on the zipper from the sides allowing for some adjustability

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One more: you could try a heel-mounted BOA like the Lake CX236. The top carbon on the tri shoe could be stiff enough to "spring up" on its own when the boa is released. You could have tabs right below the "X" in the image below that would guide the boa cable in the appropriate direction.

I like it! Though, boa wire has a lot of friction that I don't thing a carbon Spring can overcome. The zipper/heel-wheel (Sidi instead of BOA) may be a keeper.

there would be two pieces of fabric on the sides of the zipper - one to attach to the upper carbon layer, the lower layer to attach to the Sidi wire that goes through channels in the carbon to the heel reel.

The only issue with Sidi is it doesn't release quickly like boa, BUT that's what the zipper is for, the wire is just there for small adjustments, for which Sidi is perfect.

I imagine some people never even touch the heel turn knob, but it's there when needed

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Hello milesthedog and All,

Number one ... I like the zipper idea .... KISS .... Keep It Simple ....... conventional ... easy .... quick

If the shoe fits well ...... no need for further adjustment .... if further adjustment if needed ...... how about an inflatable top of foot bladder or inflatable innersole with a streamlined rubber bulb on the back of the shoe to pump up and let out air ..... just give it a squeeze to increase pressure .... or a twist to release air ..... ummmmmm comfortable ......

'Air Fit' might also be useful to mass produce the shoes with a wider range of fits.

https://www.rei.com/...shell-ski-boots-mens

Excerpts:

"Boosting insulation and hold, forward inflation zone personalizes the fit in your forefoot and instep, and rear inflation zone personalize the fit in your heel and ankle.

Inflate and deflate buttons are located at the rear of the boot."

Number two .... I like the Boa on the back .... that could be enlarged and reconfigured a bit to provide some aero smoothing behind the foot .... with a small weight penalty ... even if you do not need adjustment.



Do not forget the bottom of the shoe ..... you can give away any aero gains on top with a dirty bottom ....

If you use Speedplays this is a nice solution from view-speed.com ....

With the aero bottom on your shoe the pedals fit into the shoe like retracting the wheels on an aircraft.

Additionally as the material on the bottom is fairly soft ....... you can run on it (silently) for short distances without slipping when off the bike in transition.

The Bont on the left has the View-Speed Aero bottom ... The Nike on the right is conventional

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Thanks!
Great ideas - I think the carbon zipper is IT.... for now. The Sidi wire rear mech + zipper may be the best.

Air bladder adds heat for the summer. Underside aero: Speedolay is really the best option there. Tony Purnell tested a bunch of Simmons prototypes for the British team and found there to be very little gains with underside aero... and again, Speedolay aero clear is too easy.

Thanks! Great ideas!

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OK, going to go with the YKK carbon zipper idea and possibly add in the Sidi wire adjustment to the heel. That should make for a super fast, super aero, keep-your-foot-cooler, maximize power tri shoe


The piano hinge idea is still out there, but a) it would need to be plastic/carbon based so it doesn't rust and b) it would need to ratchet down when the lid is pressed on to allow for micro-adjustment, with the ability to quick release the ratchet.

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Hello milesthedog and All,


Good luck .... fun project .... let us know how it goes .....

Surprised that the Simmons prototypes tested with little gain for streamlined underside .. a fluid stream usually affects the surfaces it contacts .... upper, lower, sides, etc. of the immersed body ...... especially for shoes which are outside the bike aero stream. Is that work published?

I suspect that if you can integrate and modify the form of the Sidi rear wire mech to reduce the low pressure area behind the blunt heel of the shoe you should see some aero gains.

We found some nice aero gains at the San Diego Low Speed Wind Tunnel with the streamlined underside of the shoe .....

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Very good to know. I really like the look of the underside of the shoe on your website.

The work wasn't published, just done under wraps before the Olympics. Wiggins and Cav wore the shoes are WC's, as well. Cav didn't wear them at the game due to Nike sponsorship issues, but Wiggins and everyone else wore Simmons. I think most of them were using the aero Speedplays, so the lack in gains may have been a comparison of the carbon molded cleat vs the Speedplays, but I'm not 100%.

I'll be sure to post updates when we add the zipper to the prototypes, and I'll get a lot of time spent racing in them this year.

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OK, here's an update. It's GreenPlease's shoe!



The heel is a combination of neoprene and moldable foam and is molded specifically to GreenPlease's heel. Simmons is adding some drain holes in the bottom. Ventilation holes can be added, but trust me, you don't need them; these are not leather so they do not insulate. Rather, they deflect radiation (solar and from the pavement) keeping my feet cooler than leather shoes and no puddles of sweat in the shoe. But, with that logic, they are cold in the winter and when it dips below 40, I wear toe covers under a set of neoprene boots... not an issue on race day!

Other options are also possible, such as making the lid 'sprung open' and then use something, like a zipper, to close the lid. These are definitely the best tri shoes I've seen to date.

I have a pair of Simmons and they've been great; worth every penny. I have no doubt that I'll have these shoes for the next decade.

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I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on them :) Fingers crossed this concept works out.

that looks sweet, just needed the bottom to be molded to fit smoothly with the aero zero cleat

I'm thinking about having the whole sole molded in such a way that I can flip the shoe upside down and pedal on top of it coming into transition. Probably not needed for the right shoe but likely needed for the left shoe. I'll have to reach out to Jeff today...

All the marketing hype about "custom" shoes is just that, it is cool and it sounds really expensive and exclusive to say I have Custom shoes....wow I'm such a pro now :)

From physiological perspective it might not be the best approach. Your foot is not a brick, we are not robots. It swallows, due to pressure, temperature load, and many other factors.

"Custom fit" is as custom as the position it was taken from, standing up? Ok, you have custom fit while standing up... are you cycling while standing up?

Your foot pressure points will change base on bike fit, position no the bike and power on the bike, running swimming etc.. There is no perfect custom fit, since the fit is dynamic based on those inputs. You are getting "close" fit and same or much better, "close fit" can be achieved by buying shoes form reputable manufactures that constantly work on improving their shoes.

If you have custom shoes designed for 1h 40k TT for particular bike and position on the bike, then there might be some advantage...otherwise you are just misled by custom crap producers...

Additionally, having the same shoes for 15 years is dumb, during those 15 years your fitness, power, fit, and overall gait parameters have changed so much your custom fit is working against you vs new shoes that properly fit you. Do some research and see why S-works didn't fit you and how different other brands are ... I can not ride in Fiziks and Sidis, S-works work better, and Bontrager XXX are best in the world, "Custom Bonts" I tried twice all had to be sold...
They are all different shoes.

Having custom fit shoes is so cool...expensive and not for everyone, only dumb asses that do not understand biomechanics, you can have non custom shoes that will work much better that simple carbon shells....

Thats it. I think I'm going to pull the trigger on some custom shoes after seeing this video. I've admired Simmons shoes for some time now, but this is just about perfection.

I'll respectfully disagree with what I consider unsound logic.

Yes, feet change. The shoes have enough room to accommodate that, and Simmons offers adjustments, which he says is required by all of his pros. I've done 5-7 hour rides in my shoes and had no issues. For running shoes, yes, my arch needs to move the way it was intended. This is not so in cycling shoes. Also, I've used Shimano, Bont, Sidi, Northwave, Carnac, Fizik, Scott, Lake, Lake carbon inserts, custom cycling orthotics....You've made your ill-informed point, though and I'm really not interested in an argument.

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Simmons: 1-800-376-9907

My experience : not a ton of communication after my foot was initially molded but after I received my shoes, for the past year there has an open line of communication which has allowed for a pretty nice friendship to develop, and adjustments have been made for free. Great experience

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

These look awesome!

after having a full carbon shoe, I just can't go back to leather shoes, or cycling shoes that aren't full custom. I'd say that my hierarchy of needs, now, are: proper bike fit, ideal saddle, full custom shoes. I'd skimp on the rest to assure those three needs are met, first.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

They sure do look sweet. No excuses for me in transition now haha. I'm very interested to see how these test at A2 with Speedplay's aero cleats/pedals.