The article is about a guy in 35-39 AG who has a career. Not a young wannabe pro

@jwmott put it in better words than I can. The difference between being AG winner and BOP pro is a decision, and IMO not one particularly worth celebrating.

Very good point indeed. In my mind, the line between being a pro or a good age grouper is super vague. There is no such system where top AG’ers promote to the pro category and slow pro’s go back to the AG category. Maybe your national federation can take your pro license back after you under performed for a long time but I haven’t heard stories like that before.

99% of the people who race under a pro license don’t make money because of triathlon, so chasing a pro status because of the money wouldn’t be my choice. Also, when you are getting your pro license, you also need to travel more to compete with the best athletes. In my area there are also triathlons with an open category where pro’s and AG’ers compete in the same field. If you are a top AG’er, this is ideal to test yourself without the hassle of traveling a lot. But Getting your pro license to just race some local triathlons seems pointless to me.

In the end it’s all about maximizing your own potential, whatever the result may be. If someone has a nice job and loves to train a lot, but doesn’t want the lifestyle of traveling a lot, why would he want a pro license then? Nobody is stopping you doing 4:00:00 on a 70.3. A license or status isn’t limiting or improving your performance. The only thing that matters are the hours and the quality that you put in. You are a pro athlete when you can make a living out of it. Otherwise you’re an elite amateur, which is also great.

The issue is there are far too many pros who shouldn’t be pros.

Yes, there are. This is just a bonkers argument. The Basketball Tournament is televised, is written about broadly every summer, and winners are celebrated. Noone thinks they'd compete with NBA teams. Same with the Big 3 tournament. The US Amateur golf tournament is as well, along with various other non-pro golf championships. I just plugged "amateur" into the search bar at golf.com and there are many, many articles about top amateur golfers in their thirties. Obviously pro football is the most watched sport in the US. But amateur football is number 2 by a long shot. The NCAA basketball tournament is more watched than any NBA game, and broadly written about and celebrated. Often the best players in the final four are older than the best of their peers who are already in the NBA. No one is saying they shouldn't be celebrated because those teams couldn't hang with the worst NBA teams. I mean, by this logic, no one who wins anything should ever have a moment in the sun unless it's the top level competition possible. Winning the Premier League is meaningless if you don't win the Champions League? People write about what happens at the DII and DIII T&F championships and I don't think there's anyone writing in demanding they stop because if those kids are so good they should be racing DI.

You're right about one thing, triathlon culture is weird. Age group triathletes getting mad that there are other age group triathletes celebrated or profiled is extremely weird.

I think you are confusing your opinion with a widely held view. I bet if you ask ST, they can give you a better perspective on which profile would get more clicks.

You know what else most of the winners of young AG's at Kona are? Financially well-off.

I am guessing if they had the "5K World Championship Race" in Kona every year, most of the fastest age groupers couldn't afford the trip.

Yeah I agree, but you're kinda making my point for me :)

We've somehow reached the point where the top age groupers are glorified and the bottom professionals are denigrated, even though they are roughly the same. I'm saying that the chosen subjects of profile articles influences this environment, at least subconsciously. I think this is silly and bad for the sport (yes, that is an opinion).

Someone said earlier in this thread that some people don't hate on BOP Pros but if you look at many threads they certainly do. The qualification rules are too easy, why aren't they faster, etc. and people do not like fast AGers who keep winning their races. I was a BOP pro for 2 years before COVID and was a full time teacher and a new dad. Was I faster as an AGer training as much as I wanted? Yes! I was at the time in my life that triathlon took a back seat to being a dad but I could not pass the chance to race professionally. Now I didn't finish last in any of my races but I was for sure alone most of the time but I would not change it at all.

Also, because there are not pro races all over pros do race AG races (like the rules say they can) then those pros get crap for taking the spotlight away from the AG races in that race. So it seems like it is a no win situation for a top AGer or a BOP pro. But I would say that many times BOP pros might be more relatable than a FOP AGer because triathlon is not their life where some top AGers are professional racers at the AG level.

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Love you bro. I understand both sides, but ALL AG WINNERS at Kona are basically PRO's without cards. Kona is a great experience and humbling. However, when one can see how many sacrifice life/family to perform at an AG level, it is kind of sad. I love this sport, but for me it's either a hobby or a job. The top AG athletes at Kona see it as a profession without the pay.

I applaud DP's courage to step out and say what he said.

Sorry for not participating in this discussion which I kicked off.

My main point is that all these sub 45 year old age group winners are slower relative to the fastest people in their age BRACKET. They are getting coverage here when perhaps the pro of the same age who beats them by 30 minutes, but still is 30 min behind the podium in Kona gets zero coverage.

The reason they get coverage is they are not racing pro but choosing an easier division and not going head to head with the top people in their age bracket many of whom have similar lifestyles. Is it worth covering the sub 40 year old age group divisions when people with similar capability and lifestyles are racing in the pro division?

If it is going to be age group coverage, perhaps more interesting would be the winners of a 18-24 age groups, who may be on the verge of turning pro (the new talent not coming via ITU), or if its going to be age group, more interesting for a wider audience likely is the women age groupers who are balancing being mothers, work and racing for example. I think these people are inspirational age grouper stories.

Let's not forget that this guy got beaten by almost an HOUR by an athlete who is older than him who had a heart attack under 2 years ago. Tim O'Donnell's story going just 3 min slower in 2022 after his 2019 Kona sub 8 is insanely impressive. The fastest 30-45 year old age groupers are not even in the same league as Heart Attack Tim if that offers some perspective of the angle where I am coming for.

Like anything in the world it is OK to have a divergence of opinions. It is OK for some people to be impressed by one group of people while others are impressed by others. We don't need to hate each other for that, although we can choose to not like the opinions of the other person. But lets separate the people from their opinions. The same person we may diverge with on one topic we will converge on another topic.

Who is celebrating him? It certainly isn't all you grumpy dudes in here.

Loved the story Herbert. Keep writing about AGers and Pros and honestly any other person involved in this small little sport.

It's interesting, because where's the line in a sport that basically cant support it's own pro ranks beyond about 50-100 athletes. So should the sport cut them out? Should it be basically an A and B level and the "wannabe pro" out of the picture. I've been hesitant to say there are too many because I think you need 30+ athletes a race to fill an pro field at these events (I'm talking bigger money races...not the local stuff) imo. Or atleast I think you need "pack fodder" because I dont think you can be sustainable if your line in the sand is top 1% of the 1% athletes. You just wouldn't develop anything if the pros were culled to that degree.

For the most part atleast in the US they've gotten rid of the formula where you could find some low key race and suddenly do well and gain a pro card. For the most part, you have to produce. Now of course that simply means your fast enough to qualify, to the "compete" is likely a whole other level. But I still contend I think you need some pack fodder just to have a sport. What constitutes pack fodder, I guess can be debated, etc.


ETA: In the ITU thread just this past week the French Federation declined to allow the #16th world ranked athlete to race in the Grand Finale, with the explanation "you aren't good enough". Like that's crazy how high. that line in the sand is for them apparently (it may also have to do with some domestic or not willing to domestic duties, but none the less the #16th ranked athlete in the world is being barred from competing).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yeah would be great to see more credit and glory for pack fodder pros than sub 40 age group winners. Those pack fodder pros need their stories out there. As it stands once one loses hope of being a top level pro there is no incentive to keep racing pro. May as well go get age group Kona slots and podiums and recognition. I respect the bop pros who have limited chances at wins against Sebi or Cam Wurf but keep racing with no sponsor attention and no coverage, and because they are not fast enough they keep working their job at a bank, a restaurant or as a policeman.

Is he Kevin's brother

I think one of the odd things I've seen in the sports is when sponsors and/or teams "discourage" athletes from turning elite. But I get it, why do you want to give up being able to promote a bunch of podiums for "pack fodder" results, because those pack fodder results come across as "damn you suck" to the lay person. But the more bizarre part is that the "damn you suck" pack fodder athlete, *likely* still beat the podium athlete, you are "celebrating" *many times*. (and at times, the top AG'ers beat half the BOP athletes). That's just how much social media influence can have and how you can "dictate" the narrative these days. (also why it's very easy to not turn elite and stay with the good results vs "grinding" tougher results).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

While I agree with mostly everything you said I think "pack fodder pros" don't need/want the attention: they're racing pro for a myriad of motives but I don't think it's for the exposure. OTOH I think many of the FOP AGs are there for the attention they get.

And don't get me wrong I understand they want to stand above a weaker competition but they just can't call themselves WC

I know someone who races pro, aiming to make someday top10. I asked him why and he gave me one very strong reason: to avoid the drafting (besides he feels they're no sport in winning his AG by 20 minutes)

It's obvious you don't like these AG interviews and they seem to hit a button with you. I really don't know why. Its not like Tom is getting paid to do the interview. It takes more effort to bitch about it on here than it does to not click on the link.

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Yes! This is what I come to ST for.

In all seriousness, interviews with folks like Devin, Tom, yourself, and other top AGers is what i actually prefer to read. I’ve had some recurring back injury difficulties the last few years, so getting to the absolute front is pretty far off right now, but “in shape” I’m a 4:20-4:30 half IM guy that works a 50 hour corp finance week most weeks, with some trickling up into the 60s around quarter and year end. Ive podiumed fairly regularly in larger races, but never the very top. I look at people such as yourself and the others mentioned and am genuinely interested to know how your weeks break down and what is being done to get where you’re at despite a large workload.

I’m actually pretty surprised at a lot of the bitching in this thread. In no world does Sebi Kienle’s and my life outside of training look the same - nor does it for most of the other folks at the front of AG’s. Interviews of top AGers is definitely worth reading, as would interviews with mid/back of pack pros who are working full time.

The complaints come across very much like “so and so is faster than me, therefore so and so’s life outside of training is much less stressful than my own”.

Your point on the wide variance of "elites" is what goes back to where is the line in the sand with pros when people say there are "too many". Because for the most part, those MOP/BOP have to grind at a job just like the OP and yourself, they are simply racing in another category (and sometimes they'll beat the likes of the OP, and sometimes the OP will beat the likes of the BOP pro). Yes I know some that have gone "full time" elite making no money, by having supportive parents, or living in a tri house with 6 other like minded athletes, to reduce the cost of living, or working "part time" to be able to train 30 hours to see if the dream can become a reality. The issue I see is where exactly do you draw the line that there are too many? And does the "too many" reflect negatively on the elite ranks? (I have no clue?)

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I would prefer to see more coverage of BOP pros who handily beat this guy (and many others like him). I am offering a suggestion for coverage of an ignored group who are relatively toiling in anonymity with no pats on the back. When I am retired from my work life, glad to write about those BOP pros but that time is not now.

Its not that I don't like these age group interviews, its that I don't like the positioning of these people as FAST when they actually ARE NOT FAST in a relative sense. Sebi in their age bracket is fast. The BOP pros in their age bracket are faster than guys who are interviewed in interviews like this.

You're wrong. He is fast.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

When did you become king? Please get off your high horse. It’s getting really old.

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This is sort of how I see it. The interviews themselves are fine. I like that they're really into triathlon because I'm really into triathlon too.

But the disproportionate publicity these people get from articles like this compared to some professional triathletes probably contributes to things like https://www.sfuelsgolonger.com/pages/about-us where an age grouper is positioned as a world class athlete in the same category as Hayden Wilde. Matt finished right between Adam Feigh and Jason Pohl at the world championship (I know I shouldn't be comparing professional times to age grouper times, but it shows the point). As a fan of professional triathlon, it sort of bothers me that that guy is likely getting sponsorship money instead of athletes competing in the professional field.

Results aren’t everything when it comes to sponsors. They care more about social media reach and influence than your results. Honestly, a lot of pros could take a few lessons from AG’ers on having a social media presence.

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