Not to be too blunt, but you're wrong.

I come from a skiing background. I have good legs, but never had good upper body. I can only swim as fast as I do, by cheating. I be really quiet, and sneak through, when the water isn't looking. As soon as the water notices I'm there, I go slower :-)

Seriously tho, water is close to 800 times more dense than air. You might as well try to swim through dry concrete if you're not focussed on technique.

In my own office, I have a co-worker who follows the more/harder ethos. He finishes IM about 10:30 or so, to my 13 hours. He swims about 1 minute slower than me. His youth, much greater fitness,and willing to suffer way more than me, results in riding and running a lot faster than me, and swimming almost the same. I'm not going to tell him how to swim faster. :-)

Power is a component of swimming, but compared to technique (as in efficiency) it's pretty much inconsequential.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Having done some downhill skiing in HS and college, and having watched 1000s of want-to-be tri guys/girls and also 1000s little kids try to learn to swim, I have absolutely zero doubt that body awareness is an innate talent. I mean some kids just pick up swimming and skiing in no time whereas other struggle for months or years.

That pelvis thing sounded VERY painful. I broke my left femur about 7 yrs ago and it was VERY painful immediately, the second I hit the pavement:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I am well aware of the water >>> air density. Yes, that means drag hurts you more in the water.

Despite this reality, Sheila Taormina in her excellent book about EVF and propulsion, makes a strong case that once your legs are reasonably flat in the water, your swim speed is 80% PROPULSION and 20% streamlining.

Total Immersion's philosophy of all-streamlining isn't wrong, but it's most correct for beginner swimmers, who have lots of really terrible technique errors that are really obvious, especially a big leg drop. But once those legs are pretty high, and you're not fishtailing like crazy, you need POWER to go fast. If you never swim hard/fast, you plateau pretty quickly at a slow BOP pace - unless you are talented.

There is a reason why the majority of sub 1:30 swimmers have done lots of HARD sets, for awhile, even if they weren't putting up a ton of yards, and it makes perfect sense for Taormina's estimates.

Furthermore, I guarantee we could put a freaking DRAG SUIT or even a DRAG PARACHUTE on you, and you would still easily outswim all the 2:00/100m swimmers in the pool, despite that massive drag. Because of your power. I guarantee your drag from the parachute will be significantly more than the drag those 2:00/100m swmimers are generating.

Again, I'm not discounting swim water sense - it's a crucial skill, and for elite athletes, that may make all the difference between 1st and last in a 100m swim race. But for a MOP triathlete vs a FOP triathlete swim pace, there's a big power component involved - and I'm inclined to believe Taormina's 80/20 estimate.

I think you just said I'm talented. Mum will be so pleased to hear that!

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Yup, I'm saying it - compared to the joe average triathlete who would barely go 1:50/100m with your training if you're being honest about how easy you went about it - you're talented!

Not gonna comment if you're talented compared to the fish on this forum though - that's a different standard completely!

Nah, you have more power in your upper body than you think. I've never seen anyone who only had strong legs. Probably you just haven't done enough sprint work in the pool, but most swimmers who have done a lot of sprint work develop the V-shape that is the swimmer's trademark. I have one adult onset swimmer friend who went from 42 to 46 inches in jacket size just in his first year of masters swimming. During that year, he lowered his best 100 free from about 1:25 to around 1:01 flat. He swam about 1 to 1.5 hr/day, 5-6 days/wk, and prob swam around 20,000 yd/wk, with no bike or run or weights.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

yeah, the pelvis hurt, but not until about 2 minutes after I regained consciousness!

I remember to just before the crash (about 1-2 seconds before I hit the gound) and then I was 'out' for about 20 seconds or so. When I came to, the first thing I apparently said was "Oh fuck, not again". One of the pedestrians, who happened to be a nurse, was saying "don't move don't move", as my helmet was in pieces. "Yeah yeah., I know the drill" was my next comment. (Yes sportsfans, tridork is an experienced idiot!)

I waited for the pain to start, which took about another 30 seconds or so. Then my entire body screamed in agony. EVERYTHING hurt. Eventually that subsided to hip, head, and road rash.

I got up, sat on a park bench for a while (dripping blood onto the bench) and after about 20 minutes, hopped on my bike and rode home! A week later, I did IMNZ 2000, and managed a personal best for back then!

Like they say, if you're gunna be dumb, ya better be tuff.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

True dat!

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Unbelievable that you did an iron distance race with a broken pelvis!!! Hell, I could not put any weight on my broken femur at all, and the morning after same-day-as-the-crash surgery, I could just barely walk across the hospital room to go the bathroom. It took me 3.5 months to get to quasi-running with a limp, and another 2 months to running semi-decently, and 3.5 more months before the limp had pretty much gone away, e.g. about 9 months recovery total.

Did you have surgery on your pelvis???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

My pelvis was broken just behind my balls. After the crash, I had an X-ray because I thought I'd broken my hip. The X-ray just missed the crack in the middle. I didn't tell anyone about my suspected skull fracture, because I knew I wouldn't be allowed to race. Hey, if ya gunna be dumb.....

I didn't train at all for the week before IM. On race day, as I barely kick, the swim was a typical 1:02. The pelvis must have healed a tiny bit as the run to T1 was OK. On the bike, the rough road slowly split me in half. I kept thinking I had the worlds worst saddle sore. Several checks showed it was fresh as a daisy, not even a bit red. So, I HTFU and kept going.

On the run I had bad stomach issues so walked a lot of the marathon, trying not to puke. The pelvis hurt, but my guts hurt worse, and of course the mind melting headache distracted me somewhat. :-) It was NOT a great day for me.

The next morning, a buddy and I were loading the bikes onto the roof of the car. We both heard a 'tick' like a bolt of something had dropped on the ground. Neither of us could see a bolt so we loaded the second bolt, and a second 'tick' . My buddy said "what was that?" to which I responded, "if I had to say, I'd say it was my bollocks!". Your bollocks don't make that noise he countered. I agreed, so we finished loading the car and headed home. I must admit that changing gears with teh clutch was not my favourite thing that day :-(

A week later I tried to go for an easy run, but it felt like someone with a dull knife was trying to cut me a mangina. I walked to the doctors office (right at the gym) and he diagnosed the likely issue. Several tests proved him right. The treatment? Go home and sit still for 3-4 weeks. It turns out I sat too close to the fridge and I'm still carrying the weight I gained back than.

the only good thing to come from all that was that we found out that I'm one tuff mofo! and my wife can no longer claim that childbirth is the worst possible pain. LOL

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Ya, you are definitely one tough mofo!!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

After all this discussion, I think that for an adult onset swimmer (why do I always think early onset dimentia? LOL), getting faster than 1:30 per 100m will be rare and even then, it won't be by much. I see a lot of guys from 30-60 who are adult onset, who are at 1:30 or not much faster. We all swim 2-3 hours a week, in a squad. Most are fitter than me but don't sneak through the water when it's not looking. They bash their way to 1:25, but suffer like rented mules to do it.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

since this is about endurance athletes and not sprinters, how about your best guess on annual distance totals for each discipline?

BTW, I think the numbers you tossed out are as good a yardstick as I've seen. Hard, very hard for me, but doable (IF . . . ).

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What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand

Though it's tough for me to swallow my pride a bit on that statement I think I agree with you.

I started swimming when I was 34. I had ZERO background. I swam 200scy my first time in the pool most of it side stroke. I got home that night feeling like I just did 5K all out on the track...LOL.

Fast forward about 10 months and I was able to do 10 x 100 arrving in 1:20scy. I was pretty proud of myself, but I was swimming for me a LOT (10K / week) and biking and running. It was tough. I plateaued there. I don't know what it would have taken to get faster, but for me 1:20 was really pushing the boundaries. And as you state that's getting real near 1:30scm I suppose.

For me to get faster than 1:20 I'd clearly have to swim 15K / week+ and probably do little to no biking. I can see where a big swim focus may benefit in the long run, but is it worth losing ANY bike w/kg during that swim focus? Maybe not.

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24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

On your 10 x 100s, are you leaving on the 1:30, 1:40, or??? Also, if you did a "swim focus" in say Nov thru end of Jan, do you not think your biking power would come back pretty fast??? I would keep up some running, say 25-30 mpw, just so your legs stay used to the abuse, but biking does not require this per se.

Regardless of your leave interval, you made great progress in 10 months!!! You clearly have some talent for swimming. I'll bet no more than 1 out of 10 tri guys could do what you did. Tridork is one of those few. I had similar improvement back at age 14/15 when I started competitive swimming on a YMCA team. Those first big improvements can come fast but then your progress slows quite a bit. If you look at the national AG swimming records on the usaswimming.org web site, you'll see that the national record for the 100 scy is 53.12 for the 10 and under boys vs the 18 and under boys record of 42.34, i.e. 8 yrs of long hard workouts to take that additional 11 sec off your best time, and that is for the most talented swimmers in the country.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Leaving on 1:40.

My go to workouts during my last few months building up to the ability to swim 10 x 100 1:20:

15-20 x 100 arriving in 1:22-1:23. Leaving 1:40.

It was very hard work. Much harder day in and out than biking and running.

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24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

Well, I think whether one regards swimming has harder than the BR might depend on whether one enjoys it or not. I know I'm strange but there is absolutely no better feeling in the world than swimming fast. You're right up there on top of the water, just flying along with smoothness, grace, and speed. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother with the BR but OTOH from many years of swimming I know that, if I just swim and try to kill myself every day in the pool, then I'll burn out. Thus the BR for me is just a diversion from my main sport.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Some ? Thats more than I run on average per week..

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Ya but I know some of the big runners do 50-60 mpw, plus their S and B, so just wanted to cover all the bases:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."