Ya, 25 m pool = SCM. I do about 1/2 of my swimming in a 25 yd (SCY) pool and the other 1/2 in a 25 m pool and, based on this switching back and forth, which has occurred over the past 20 yrs, I've come to conclude that 450 SCM = 500 SCY to within a second or so. So, I would say your 5:31 for 400 SCM = about 6:13 for a 500 SCY, which is just about 5 sec more than you estimated:)

In any case, it's always nice to hear of an "adult onset swimmer" (AOS) who's learned to swim pretty well. I agree 100% that at least 80% of healthy adult males under 40 could swim a 6:30 for 500 SCY, or around 5:47 for 400 SCM. As I've said many times on ST, I know at least 10 guys who I've swum with in the past, and/or I swim with currently, who took up swimming in their 20s or early 30s, and all of them got down to 6:30 or faster for the 500, and 3 or 4 have gone sub-6:00, or sub-5:20 for 400 SCM, which is still not very fast per se since the WR for 400 SCM is 3:32, which is indeed smoking fast!!! I think most tri guys just don't have the desire:(

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Wouldn't that be 3.42?

While I love swimming, I think most trigeeks have knowingly or unknowingly come to the realization that the swim is merely a formality. It is so short compared to riding and running, that it's barely worth training. Recently, after nearly 3years of only swimming once every 2 weeks or so, I managed to swim 32minutes for a 1/2 IM swim. As I'm unfit, I took it really easy. In fact, a couple of times, I caught myself checking out the scenery! I still went just 2 mintues over a PB that I killed myself to do. 2 mintues? Why even pay for a pool membership?

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Nah, the long course (50 m pool) 400 m WR is 3:40 by Paul Biederman of Germany, but the short course (25 m pool) is 3:32, by Yannick Agnel of France. I remember that time very well because my jaw just dropped:)

The 3:42 you were thinking of is actually the American long course record by Larsen Jensen:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

But you can't compare one half iron swim to another because the actual distances vary so much. I've swum from 24 to 32 for diff half iron swims. You can really only compare pool swims one to another.

But I agree with your main point, which is why I only race Oly dist anymore, since at least there the swim has a bit more import:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Same lake for 10 years now. there have been two swim course option. yes there's long years and short years, but all pretty close in distance and times. My loss of 2 minutes from a PB really is pretty much all fitness and effort on the day.

The bike course has changed, adding more and more hills every year. Thanks to my new Cervelo, again, going really easy, I was only 3 min off a PB. After the swim and bike, "the wheels fell off" so to speak and there was a looooooooong walk back to the showers :-(

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

OK, well, perhaps in this case you are justified in comparing the swims. Regarding your run, I suspect you're more of a fast twitch guy, since you were a pro downhill skier. It seems like the swimmer/biker types like yourself usually come from some sort of fast twitch sport background:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Right, I was thinking of LCM, and I thought it was even less than 3.42. Remember when Agniel did the record actually, but yeah, SCM records are not as much inked in my brain as are the LCM records :-)

I swim about 1/2 the time in a 25 m pool so tend to pay some attention to those, just out of curiosity as to how incredibly fast those top guys go:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I'm an adult-onset swimmer, having taken it up five years ago when I decided I wanted to get into triathlon. Over the years I worked my way to last season, where I swam a little over 500,000 yards (I know very small for a true swimmer), and I managed a 1:06 IM swim and a 32 min HIM swim. Definitely not record setting by any means, but I was in position to do well within my AG based on more of a strength on the bike and run.

For me, and for many others, putting in tons of pool time to gain a minute or two doesn't seem worth it when the swim accounts for a rather small part of an overall race (excluding the Olympic distance). For me there's more ROI spending time on the bike or running. My w/kg at FTP is around 4.6 and my 5k PR is 17:42, so I often play catchup after the swim. It seems to work for me. Would I like to be 4-5 min faster in a HIM swim? Of course, but for me with a new baby it isn't feasible to spend that much time in the pool.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
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First off I do not consider myself a gifted athlete, decent, but not fantastic by any stretch compared to a lot of the talent on ST.

I have never broken 20 for a 5k even when I was in my best shape. I think 20:40 rings a bell for best 5k in a road race. I did break an hour a few times on 40k ITT"s back in the day, but that was way b/f power meters so I have no idea. Had a couple in some races too, but they were nowhere near a true 40k so I don't count them.

5:53 500 yard last spring. In the world of swimmers that is nothing and while not pathetic it's a smidge over acceptable in my book for a mid 40's guy swimming as much as I do.

I'd say my limiter in the pool for the 500 was technique until ~ a 6:40 and then it was pain cave/engine building time after that. I say that b/c right about the time I was approaching a 1:20 100 yard pace for 500 yard tests is when my coach put me into dedicated paced swim workouts. Up to then he'd put me on a steady diet of ~ 50% drills and a LOT of kicking with some full stroke work post drill to bring it all together. Very little clock swimming with splits up to that point. I *think* my 500 would be slower now too, but I don't even want to find out as I hate distance. Come to find out I'm a fast twitch mofo and sprinting is my thing so 100 and below for me! Swimming anything over a 200 bores me to tears now as was confirmed by my mental black outs during the 1650 ladder yesterday:/

While I love swimming, I think most trigeeks have knowingly or unknowingly come to the realization that the swim is merely a formality. It is so short compared to riding and running, that it's barely worth training.

This would be a mistake.

I agree with you that in terms of percentage of the race and time-on that it's easy to reach this conclusion. Also, it's convenient to consider a minimalist swim training program, because, realativly speaking it can take up more time, and most have to work-around pool schedules - depending on some variables, a one hour swim can take up 2 hours of time . . and so on.

The point that is missed here by many is that swimming, just like the other two sports is an aerobic endurance sport. At some point in time, in an triathletes "career", a significant investment in swimming time, and volume, will yield some big improvement results - say, taking 6 months and, swimming as much as you can in that six months ( 5 - 6 days/week).

Success in triathlon, particularly the longer races that seem to be the most popular these days, at one level is all about energy managment. I've stodd on the shore at big 70.3 and Ironman races and watch the people coming out of the water. Many look completely maxed out by the swim. They have already gone deep into their energy stores, in the shortest part of the race! Is this the best way to start out a 5hr or 11+ hour day?

In each of the 3 sports that make up triathlon, you need to invest time in building up the size of the aerobic engine. This takes time (read - a number of years). That's why I always say, you really need to enjoy doing this. You need to want to be out there doing it. It's a long journey, best to enjoy it!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I also think there's a sweet spot of around 3-4 hours per week or about 15-20% of you total training volume... at least if you already have a swimming background.

Look at it this way, I know based on my swimming volume and speed in high school that if I raised to to 12-16 hour per week, the best I could manage is dropping another 3 minutes in a IM swim. So is an extra 8 hour spent swimming and not running or biking worth it worth going lets say 56 instead of 59? No way. Now, if I onl swam 1.5-2 hours per week I might slow to 1:05. So that extra 90-120 minutes is worth 5 minutes. But obviously this formula varies. But you can do the same math for any of the 3 disciplines.

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Not sure what my CdA is. I haven't done field or tunnels testing. Eyeball wind tunnel says not bad.

I went right around a 2:21 at Boulder 70.3 on 205 watts measured with a Quarq.

It would be neat if some folks who have recently put in alot of swim training effort and subsequently lowered their swim split could be convinced to do the swim portion of their next race (preferably a race they've done previously) at a time to match their previous year's split. Presumably since they are better swimmers, swimming an old split would require less effort. It would be neat to see what effect this had on their other splits and overall time for the day. Hard to tell, I suspect, given their other training has probably been variable as well. I think you're correct, Fleck, in your assessment, but just curious if there's data to that effect out there or wondering if that data could be produced.

I did exactly this in a matter of speaking (and unintenionally). I did the Six-Flags Olympic as my A race last summer. I put a lot of effort into my swim and bike, doing both all winter, and then a lot of open water swims all summer. My 10K time at my last Olympic was 46:55, with a 21.2 mph average on the bike and a 1:45/100m in the swim.

At Six-Flags I averaged 1:43/100m on the swim and felt better than I had ever felt coming out of the water. So good in fact that I was able to actually run up the ramp, resulting in a trip/slip, and kick to the dock. That caused an open compression fracture of my left big toe. Bone sticking right through the top of my toe, blood everywhere.

I ran bare foot with a broken toe about .25 miles on pavement, then I did the bike with a broken toe. I could only lightly push down on the left pedal, and there was no lift. A few bumps caused enough pain for the world to gray out. I still averaged 21.0 mph for the course.

I then ran 10 k on that toe in 48:55. Same as the year before.

I would like to think that in the previous year I would have done much worse.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

I agree that swimming counts in triathlon (but not much), and I for one love swimming, even tho I'm not a swimmer by any stretch.

My point is that if you are (at IM) say a 1:20 swimmer, and you are managing your energy use sensibly to get that time, with a LOT of time in the pool you could get to say 1:10 or 1:05, but it would take a long time to get to that speed using similar energy. For 10-15 minutes of savings, you'd have to make a HUGE investment in time and effort. Running is a much better way to improve your overall time at IM

ME? I love swimming, have focussed on it for nearly 25 years and I manage to get 1:02 at IM, without killing myself. I see no sense in spending more time in the pool or spending much effort on my technique to get efficiency gains, for say 2-5 minute improvement. I see it as being far more worthwhile to simply do my 2-3 swim squads a week, and spend a lot more time, effort and focus on riding or running. Hell, I finish IM at almost exactly 13 hours. The swim is not my problem and it's not the problem for the vast majority of IM participants. Given the number of walkers at IM, I think as long as you go under say 1:30 for the swim, you should go for a run instead of going to the pool

BTW, I used to think my 13 hour time meant I was a crap triathlete. However, at my last few IM's taht 13 hours means I've finished almost exactly at the 50th percentile. That makes me AVERAGE, and that ain't bad. :-)

I have a friend who hits the pool for about 4x 1 hour sessions in the last month before his A race, and he's managed to get down to about 9:15 or so at IM. With arguably no swim training, he manages to sneak under 60 minutes for the swim, so no use wasting time or money on swim training for him, or most people as far as I'm concerned. For pro's or the few people at the pointy end of an AG, sure, max out your training in all 3 sprots, but for the rest of us, go for a run.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Thanks for thinking I'm a fast twitch guy. Unfortunately I'm not. You might therefore think I must be a slowtitch guy. I'm not that either. I'm in the very rare NO twitch type.

I am thoroughly addicted to this freakin' sport, but I'm completely unsuited for it. I'm 53, I'm fat, I've broken 37 bones so far (and I don't count toes) I've disocated shoulders, I've got arthritis in my hips (and starting in my wrists and ankles now) I have 3 heart conditions, I have have exercise induced asthma, I have a slipped disc in my back, and I have an aversion to training. I should retire from triathlon and take up couch surfing, but I just love doing something hard and proving to myself that I'm not a completely broken down useless fat f&^k.

Some days I wish triathlon had never been invented! some days I wish I liked doing something I'm better suited for.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

WOW, that was some impressive pain tolerance!!! So, how's the toe now??? Did you stop racing after that or???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Well, I think you're being a bit too hard on yourself. Anyone who did alpine skiing as a pro has to have some pretty impressive thighs, not to mention incredible coordination. That's why you caught onto the swim and bike easily. The run eludes you prob due to a few extra bones plus the downside of having a fair amount of fast twitch muscles. You could consider just racing sprint tris with a 5K or less run - you prob do well!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Eric,

Thanks for the compliments and suggestions.

Back in the day, yes I had monstrous thighs. I looked like a freak, like a t-Rex with massive thighs and tiny upper body. Funny to look at is why I left my clothes on until the ladies were past the point of saying no :-)

With my heart problems, sprint distance stuff isn't an option. Redline racing ain't for me. I like the long slow stuff, where i can dial in a speed or effort and hold it. I truly do just need to find more time for running. Maybe I'll start skipping swim workouts, but the girls in my squad are just too lovely to go without. (are you starting to catch onto my life focus?)

About 2 years ago, my son owned a gym. I started going and got good results. Even after almost 25 years away from skiing, my legs are wicked strong. After just 5 weeks, I got the leg press (inclined bench thingy) maxed out at 420kg (925lbs). The PT I was working with said I'd just have to do more reps. I got up to 20 reps of 420kg and then gave up, as the gym was taking too much precious time away from my life. My son has sold the gym now, but I feel like doing some upper body stuff and a few leg presses might be a good idea again.

The only problem with doing big weights and too many reps was that I kept getting bruises on my lower back, from the seatback of the machine. LOL. My son thought he was a bit of a hero at the gym until I maxed out the machine. To be fair tho. I did struggle to do more than 5 chinups in a row, and that was after about 10 weeks of training! LOL I guess I'm still a bit of a freak.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

I was trying to explain this to someone else on an unrelated forum that is into tri as well. When looking at his swim workouts for full iroman distance races his swim workouts were 1/3 mine and 1/3 as frequent and I am focusing on 70.3 right now, granted I'm focusing and he is just sort of finishing but still not slow. He thought the same thing as many, well getting faster won't help me much I should dedicate time to biking or running. Which in the grand scheme of things is true, however many seem to forget the aerobic part. I have a swimming background so yes it comes easier for me but I'm not necessarily faster than those I'm competing against. I usually get out of the water say 5th-10th place (with two waves for my age group usually top 15-20 or so then). But I'm basically just warmed up for a bike ride, my heart rate is low, my breathing is calm. Could I have gone faster, yes but instead I came out within 30 seconds of everyone around me and I'm probably feeling better than most of them. I make sure within the first 50-100 yards I'm no further back than say 20th and I just slowly pick them off as they run out of steam.

Besides if I finish the swim 2 minutes faster than the quickest runner then I don't have to run as fast, I think I mentioned in this thread I hate running :)...

So, with so much strength in your legs, I'm guessing you really like hilly bike courses???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

With a rather large belly hiding my quads from view, I do NOT like hilly courses. Gravity is a bitch! :-)

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Well, you know what you need to do to get rid of that belly, right??? Losing weight is not easy but it's not THAT hard. Did you see this vid from a related thread???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKs0oEIVOck

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."