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For PowerCranker's only please ...
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Many people are afraid of what i say about the "transition" period and afraid of losing more than they gain during the transition period. i tell them that almost everyone (if they use them exclusively) will be back up to previous speeds (at least for reasonable distances) and close to previous training mileage in less than a month. Further, even if there was a race 6 weeks from their start I believe they would gain more than they lose, such that transitioning would probably not make them go slower in that race. Now that there is a fair number of PC'ers out there with good "exclusive use" (or close to it) experience I would like to ask those of you who fit this description this question:

Is what I am telling potential customers fit in with your experience? If not, what do you think I should be telling them about this period?

Oh, and one more question. The issue of "exclusive use" of the PC's seems to be pretty controversial amongst some of the coaches. Does anyone have any thoughts on a better way to use the cranks (to get the most out of them) and if you do, why?

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: For PowerCranker's only please ... [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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From a sales perspective I think some customer's are scared away when you say "You have to use these all the time!" They are reluctant to let go of their current paradigm. Perhaps once someone started using them they would discover "If some is good more is better" and start using them pretty much exclusively, at least in training. People who use them do know: These things do make you faster on the bike and especially (for me) on the run. They are hard to use at first- you have to want improvement because using them at first is humbling.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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whoa [ In reply to ]
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I think you should remove that claim, you cannot tell a rider that he/she will be up to speed and regain any lost speed because it is just not true. It is not possible to get the same workout on PC's and do high gear work on your quads in such a short time. I know for FACT that this is the case (another PC user I know who uses them).

I would reccomend that you:

1. Remove all claims of power and speed improvements on your site and posts because you cannot apply them across the board to every user AND you have done zero testing to back up your claims.

2. Be honest with new users and tell them, up front, that in order for the PC's (in your opinion) to work, THEY MUST do every single ride on the PC's and none on regular cranks. Tell them that they will hardly be able to keep up their training regimen at first and in many cases they may actually lose power while gaining new efficiency.

3. Take the approach that Frank Day does: give good info about your product.

4. Give truthful info. Let the user know that PC useage is a training option and not necessarily the best option for all riders. Get rid of the claims that Pro riders are benefitting from PC useage because you know that the majority of Pros that may be using them really DO NOT use your cranks exclusively. C'mon now. I could just see Cadel riding along at 18 MPH struggling! I believe that if Pros are using them they are using them as substitutes for 1-leg drills and likely using the PC's sporadically.

Hey, my 2 cents, I'm sure I'm not the only one with this view. Great product for pedalling efficiency but not the freakin' Magic Bullet.
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Re: For PowerCranker's only please ... [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Oh, and one more question. The issue of "exclusive use" of the PC's seems to be pretty controversial amongst some of the coaches. Does anyone have any thoughts on a better way to use the cranks (to get the most out of them) and if you do, why?


This is certainly one of the questions I have about your advocation of exclusive use. If these are not actually made for exclusive use - ie made for racing on, then it would seem that they are actually a training aid. I would then put them in the class of a stationary trainer, on which you do certain things you can't do on the road (ie, structured, repeatable intervals), or, as in swimming, they may be used like paddles, kickboards, fins or resistance suits or stroke drills - an aid to develop a specific part of the sport's skillset, and not something to be used all the time (or illegal to use in a race).

So, if not to be used all the time, and certainly not for racing (my assumption) then they appear to be most useful as an aid to adjust a lack of pedalling skill - ie, pulling up on the upstroke. In that case I would use them on a regular, but not exclusive basis, to get the feel for that part of the stroke, and to develop that muscle set. I would then swtich back to my regular cranks and work on developing the same feel with them. So I might use them two or three days a week and in between I would use my regular cranks. By switching back and forth it it should be possible to change your pedaling style.

I think I would put exclusive use of these in the same boat as those swimmers who use paddles or fins in practice all the time because they don't like how slow they are without them. I see these swimmers often at the pool, and wonder how they do in a race without them! Now, PC's aren't an aid in that sense, but they certainly could become a crutch to force good pedaling technique for someone who is too lazy to pay attention when using their normal cranks. For that reason I would only use them as an aid, not a replacement for my regular cranks.



"My strategy is to start out slow and then peter-out altogether" Walt Stack
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Re: whoa [Gary in SD] [ In reply to ]
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You have pretty strong ideas on them for someone who barely used them for 2 weeks...

your problem is that you want the results right away. As I said before, it's good that you are not a swimmer...you would be so pissed to notice how much effort you put to remove 1'' off a 100m free.

Tell you what, with this attitude, you will never have the results that you are potentially capable off. No matter what you do/use etc...you have to worked hard.

I've been hitting my heads 2 million times on the IM, but I don't care, I go on until it goes through. that's what you should have done with the PC, but gee, you had spent two weeks on them already and didn't ride 49'/40km yet. so you give up.

Frank has been giving truthful info, on how, to the best of his knowledge, use the PC for most improvements. many on this forum emailed personnally for info, and I did the same.

work on them exclusively, until you adjust, them include strength work with a larger chain ring, then include tempo work, and Vo2 uphill (easier than on the flat with PC) and then wait for the cadence to come up. However, I have never said it would happen overnight, and Frank neither.

I do hope that the people that asked my opinion will hang in there and reap the benefits of their effort.
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Re: For PowerCranker's only please ... [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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I think you should make it very clear that most people are not going to be able to ride the cranks for more than short periods when they start. I do not know if your representations about improvement are valid, but I do not feel that I have been mislead in any fashion. I understand how you think they should be used, but I am not using them that way. I have had mine for about 3 weeks. I am too concerned about endurance problems when I can only ride them for 5 minutes without stopping. I made it 15 yesterday (mostly sitting upright) and probably could have forced it to 20, so I am improving. My most common usage of them is in alternation with a treadmill run. (e.g. 10 mins, mile run, repeat, etc). So far, other than computrainer usage, I have riden a couple of times with my 8 year old on a 6 mile loop and as a brief road ride between two runs. I intend to stick with them in the fashion that I am using them, so I will be able to give you an opinion as to whether they I think they are useful in this usage. I am 43 and usually am near the front of my age group on the bike. I get slaughtered on the run with my middle of the pack performance and am actually more concerned with my run. I can also give you the name of a good coach that told a buddy of mine yesterday that he thought they were a better training aid than a CT or a treadmill. A lot of his people watch this forum so you may get a response from them.
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Re: For PowerCranker's only please ... [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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well mr day you could tell my story. honestly, i think people can do more than they think they can. i mean, i am no elite rider or anything, just a 42 y/o enthusiast from wisconsin who got them, put them on, and kept up mileage for an IM 10 weeks from the event with really no problem. the 100 mi day 3 ride is well known - but i also did 2, and 3 hour rides, and two a day 3 hour rides, 2-3 hour hill repaet days, and whatever in the first weeks i had them. did i say that i believe very strongly that people can do more than they think they can?? don't take it from me, ask anybody who just got out of boot camp in the marines. we hold more untapped potential in ourselves than most people know. the biggest caveat is they need to forget the speedometer, and instead look at their HRM while adapting. as you say the speed will suffer while they are building the muscles to PC, but fittness will not.

as for the issue of exclusive use i would say the same. i would make an anology with weight training. that is, if you are starting weight training you ideally lift with proper form. most times using proper form means you will, at first, be lifting less weight for less reps than if you "cheat" the form. PC's are proper form ! if you weight train correctly 2 times, and then incorrectly one time just so you can say you lifted xxx weight xxx times who have you cheated? it takes some degree of understanding, patience, and ....i don't know...self confidence(?) to let yourself be worse so you can get better - not everybody wants to do this.

finally, on the topic of switching to regular cranks to "work" the quads. i know some coaches are big on this. i believe it is simply a standard by-product of the technique of easing up the quad's drive so the HF's can physically keep up. this will ease in several short weeks and one can resume all the hammering they want. OR if they do not want to wait they can go do seated hill repeats at a low cadence, or simply do it lemond style and select a big a$$ gear and grind along the flats. the idea that the quads suffer during PC adaptation is simply not true, if you use your head, IMHO.

for me, having now adapted to the PC's well enough, i can't see W-H-Y one would not want to use them on a ride, provided one has them. contrary to the oft alluded point that one would be better "just working it the old fashioned way" or whatever - PC's are WAY more work than regular cranks. they are the antithesis of a "magic bullet" or "training gizmo". they make you work like a mutha every single pedal stroke. since coming to tri i have learned to appreciate the need to get the most out of every workout, and PC's help you do that quite handily. to me the question is, if you have them, what benefit is there in NOT using them? none that i can see, apart from the occasional ride where your will be at your limit to hang onto a wicked fast group or something and you can't afford to make one pedal stroke in err - or carry one additional pound.......a virtual race , as it were.

the other point, not so related, that i see is the cost issue - they are costly, yes. but. so are p2k's, and 404's, and TI workshops, and whathave you. i am of the opinion that a $1400 tequilo will get you over the finish line as fast as a $2100 whatever. a $1200 set of wheels might gain you 8 min in IM bike split, but in 10 weeks PC's gave me almost 4 times that in the run alone by my claculations. i am a 90 min IM swimmer, and i am pretty sure i could spend 800 bucks on coaching and get NOPLACE near that kind (26 min) of improvement ever, let alone 10 weeks. well and good - we can all spend on whatever think will be the most fun. the thing is, seldom do you see people come in and bag on TI workshops, or 404's, or p2k's like they do PC's. i myself used to do just that, and for the life of me i cannot remember why. tim
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A couple of questions ... [Mantis] [ In reply to ]
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You say you are not using them like I say but it sounds pretty close, with only a few rides on regular cranks.

Have you taken them on the road? Most seem to think they are much easier to ride on the road and get the distance/time endurance back up?

Are you riding reasonable speeds (compared to your previous speeds) before you crash?

Have you seen run improvement yet?

Thanks

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: For PowerCranker's only please ... [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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First off, I basically suck so it's not like I have alot of experience to fall back on, but I thought I'd give the PCs a try to see what all the fuss is about and I'd just send them back if they were not all that. So this if what I have to say about them if you care to read on:

I didn't pay much attention to claims that involved times and numbers since I'm somewhat of a skeptic, but the concept made sense and I was intrigued. My experience is everyone with something to sell has to say something about their product besides "hey, try these things, they seem like they would work! Gimme $800." I'm never going to ride for money and I basically like to go out and have a good time smoking myself with my buddies and having a good time. I've been on the PCs for about a month. I've done a couple of IMs and can get around 5:15 on the bike on the Austria and Germany courses. I've had the things on a static trainer (TACX basic) for the entire time since I'm trapped indoors for a while. Before PCs, I was a spinner turning around 95-110 RPM for up to 2.5 hrs on a trainer (the most I was ever willing to put up with on a traininer). I could hold 195 watts for about 90 minutes or so with a HR in the mid 150s before I would get bored and shange to something else. Then I added PCs....

At first I had to ride in 2 minute intervals for up to 20 minutes because that's all I could manage. I felt like I was riding a football bat. In about 10 days I was riding for 45 minutes in 15 minute intervals. Now I am up to 90 minutes but I still either stand or ride out of the saddle (which is weird at first) for a minute or so every 15 minutes to give my ass a break. When starting a session, I find that after about 10 minutes of easy riding that I'm fairly warmed up and I feel 100% better from then on. I was stuck at 72 RPM at around 185 watts for the first 2.5 weeks with a HR around the high 140's (struggling). Now I am somehow able to hold 85-90 RPM for longer periods. I think 85 RPM feels the most natural now. I get bored riding the same style so I will elevate the front wheel for maybe 30 minutes, ride level for maybe 30 minutes, ride about 85-90 RPM for a while, then put it in a bigger gear and ride at a low cadence. Here's why I'm optimistic: I'm able to hold about 225-230 watts at about 80 RPM with my HR around the high 140's for 30 minutes at a time and it's fairly easy (more than before). I can hold around 290 watts at around 85 RPM for 10 minutes at a time for 3-4 repeats with a HR around the low 160's for an hour or so (way more than before). Riding in the drops, however, makes me drop the RPM because the hip flexors are just not able to keep up a high spin in that position.

I don't think I would say that "1 month and you're back to normal". I do feel pretty good on them now. I'm not riding at the high RPM for as long as I was, but I'm making more power for longer periods than before it seems. I am able to keep the things 180 degrees apart easily and I don't even think about them separating, so they act just like regular cranks as far as I can tell except when out of the saddle. I think out of the saddle is a bit easier for some reason with the PCs now. Curiously enough, I find that the PCs feel better to be than regular cranks because I think my stroke is more even. I like the thoroughly tired feeling my entire legs have after a good ride. I also think base work is hard and I find myself riding harder than I want this time of the season, which I think is a drawback.
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Re: For PowerCranker's only please ... [JL] [ In reply to ]
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5:15 IM Bike. We should all suck so bad...

From a 5:30.
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Re: A couple of questions ... [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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I have been on the road twice with PCs. (keep in mind I live on the coast so except for bridges do not have hills). Once was very slow with my 8 year old son and the other time was up and over a bridge and back for a total of about 2 miles between runs.

On my CT I am riding about 90 rpm, 250 watts but sitting upright. The wattage is actually higher than I would have expected from the feel. I suspect this is from an increased wattage on the upstroke since I do not feel like I am pushing. The last couple of rides I have actually started doing better if I increase concentration on downstroke (or maybe just decrease focus and upstroke) and upstroke is taking care of itself. I have taken this to mean that I am getting there.

I feel like I have a run improvement but do not have any objective measure. It is this improvement that is actually a stonger motivator to stick with it. I will certainly take any improvement I can get, but am relative satisfied with my bike.
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A couple of question please .. [JL] [ In reply to ]
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I don't mean to say that people are back to "normal" in a month but only that they start to see "normal" speeds (for reasonable distances) and pretty close to normal endurance for them (even though they are not pedaling constantly) in that time. How could I better describe to people what to expect, in your experience?

People are afraid of this transtion but yours seems to have gone well and is pretty much what I have heard and expect but maybe I don't describe it well.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: For PowerCranker's only please ... [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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First, as to Frank's good faith:

I believe it is obvious that Mr. Day would sell more power cranks if he abandonned the "exclusive use" suggestion. This deters many would-be customers who are afraid of a dip in their mileage. This seems to be true even in the off season; the problem increases as race season approaches. Yet, he still makes the suggestion, because he believes it is in the best interest of his customers. It is rare to find a businessman who will sacrafice immediate sales for long term customer satisfaction.

Now, to answer the questions:

1) I have been riding pc's exclusively for about a month. Unfortunately, due to work related travel, there have been significant training gaps. Therefore, I am not a particulary good test subject. That being said, I am now up to 2 hour rides on the trainer with relative ease. Cadence is down to about 72 from my prior average of 85. I'm not sure about speed, because I have no speed indicator on the trainer. I have not yet tried a 4 hour ride on the road (my usual pre-pc training duration), but I will be very surprised if I can't do it. I do suspect my average speed will be down 3mph or so; hopefully, I'll find out this weekend.

2)As to alternatives to pc exclusivity, it's really all speculation. Frank's reasoning makes sense. If the rider uses pc's on one bike and regular cranks on the other, he will be unlikely to consistantly unweight the recovering leg on the regular cranks. This would seem particulary true if the "regular" bike has a different setup than the pc bike (eg, more aero), or if the rider rides his regular bike at a higher cadence than he uses on the pc bike. Otherwise stated, if the rider tries to do something on regular cranks that he is not yet capable of doing on his pc bike, he will revert to his old pedaling style and sabatoge his training. Just common sense.

However, if a rider had 2 bikes with relatively equal setups, and he rode them both in the same way (same cadence; same position), I suspect he would be able use both bikes without hurting his training too much. To me, it makes more sense for one to suck it up and grind through the adaptation period using pc's exclusively, then continue on with them.
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Re: For PowerCranker's only please ... [Tom in AL] [ In reply to ]
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good on ya, tom. i believe you will be able to crank out those 4 hours. if you go out two hours, you wil more or less HAVE to, no? that is what i did when i got mine. in fact, i encourage those who might be put off by the notion of possible decreased mileage to , as bob dylan once said "change their way of thinkin". :) i took it as a challenge, and rode 50 miles north, and therefore needed to get 50 miles back south before work at noon. i did just that - and then commenced full on end stage IM training miles as before. it hurt, yes. it was ugly, indeed. but it got done and it was one of my best days riding ever in 20 plus years. i think the issue is over-intellectualized. just do it, buddy. tim
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Re: For PowerCranker's only please ... [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Training for most any sport (including running or swimming) or activity involves drills or some similar activity. I do not understand why riding PCs say half the time would not convey some benefit (if there is any benefit to them at all). There is no doubt that it develops different muscles and one should be able to "remember" how to use them. If this is not the case why does anyone do swimming drills.
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Re: For PowerCranker's only please ... [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]
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I went from 30 seconds on my first attempt to 15 minutes on the trainer in less than a month. Riding on the road is MUCH easier, because you get the rest so dearly needed on the downhills. I rode an hour on two separte occasions...much easier than my 15 minutes non-stop on the trainer! My running is faster, even though I'm not running as many miles. My bike speed is unchanged, but my rpm's are 15-20 lower on PC's. My UPHILL bike speed is definitely faster...either sitting or standing.

In my opinion, I cannot say that Dr. Day's claims are incorrect. I'm using the way he instructs, and I am seeing changes...good changes, in my pedal stroke. I haven't ridden regular cranks since I put on the PC's, so I can't say how going back to regular cranks would feel, or how my speed my have changed on them.

I have learned not to worry about the lower rpm's hurting my knees...it hasn't resulted in any knee pain. Although in the past, on regular cranks, lower rpm's tended to make my knees sore.

I cannot see how PC's could hurt one's power or speed on the bike, except when first riding on PC's before your hip flexors have adapted.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: For PowerCranker's only please ... [Mantis] [ In reply to ]
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PCs are not comparable to swimming drills. First, depending upon the drill you work on just part of the swim stroke and you may not have the ability to work all other aspects of the stroke. For example, a fist drill works using your arm as surface are for pulling. It is NOT possible to swim maximum speed with your hand closed in a fist. On powercranks, you can still bike as fast as you normally do, once you have adapted to them.

If there were some sort of contraption that forced you to keep high elbows - even when you are tired you cannot go anywhere unless you keep your elbow high - you would train with them all the time, provide they did not interfere with any other part of your swim stroke.

Also, Frank Day has not said that you will not see results if you only use them part time. He has merely stated that he thinks you will get much greater benefit if you use them all the time. In swimming this is also true. If you do drills for a little while but then spend most of your time flailing in the water while giving an all out effort, you will not likely see the results someone gets by working on form all the time, even during all out efforts.
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Re: For PowerCranker's only please ... [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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I have used PC's exclusively for 4 months now.

If your training large distances(80Mi+), I believe you will lose some aerobic fitness from putting on the PC's. Why? You just won't have enough endurance in your hip flexors to pedal that long.

If your training half IM or less distances... a month seems reasonable... maybe two. IF... you ride them at least 3-4 times a week. You will STILL lose aerobic fitness though during the transition period.. cuz your rides won't last very long. Maybe run more?

Will you gain more than you lose during transition? I dunno.. that's tough to quantify... and depends on your fitness to begin with.

If your worried about a race coming up: use them intermittently to supplement your regular rides, until such time as you can go exclusive.

The key for me has been cadence and bike position.
From day 1, I spun my normal cadence(or target cadence while doing drills). Every ride I would get in the aero position as much as possible or on the hoods.. as little sitting up as possible. This week I was able to ride aero for about an hour.. it took me 4 months to get there!

Those are my thoughts FWIW....
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Re: For PowerCranker's only please ... [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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I am a little confused on this issue. Can someone please explain to me how using the p/c's help with your running. I understand about the biking aspect but I hear people say how it has improved their running times.
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Re: For PowerCranker's only please ... [supertrirunner] [ In reply to ]
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dunno, superunner. all year i had been getting whupped on by my many marathon vet IM training buddy and a few others....same times on my bazillion time ran route around town - then i got powercranks and presto - runner buddy could not stay with me, and i'm home 5 min faster for every 5 mi ran at the same HR/PE. granted i had nowhere to go but up, but i had been stagnant for over a year, and did nothing else different. better still, i could maintain that pace longer, too. why, i have no idea and do not care :)
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running faster [ In reply to ]
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I'm running faster. I lift my knee higher now, especially going uphill. Now, it's my calves that tire out limiting my speed/distance, instead of my hip flexors getting too tired to pull my knee up/forward sufficiently. Also, my run cadence has increased slightly, again, because it is "easier" to turn my legs over at this higher cadence...it wasn't something I tried to do...it just happened when I began on PC's.

A friend of mine just did his first Marathon. He complained that at mile 19, his hip flexors got so tired and hurt so much, he could hardly continue. He said he was interested in getting PC's after seeing how they've helped my run, and how my hip flexors no longer are my limiting factor in speed/endurance on the run. I'm trying to get him to move over to triathlon!



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Nobody was more surprised about this than me ... [supertrirunner] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]I am a little confused on this issue. Can someone please explain to me how using the p/c's help with your running. I understand about the biking aspect but I hear people say how it has improved their running times.[/reply]

and I invented them. Almost everyone reports running improvement. I have theorized that the new muscles the PC's are training into aerobic powerhouses are the limiting muscles in running, so as they develop they allow the runner to run "harder" without going anaerobic or feeling like they are running "harder".

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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half marathon after 4 weeks of PC'ing [ In reply to ]
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One hour, 38 minutes, 40 seconds on a mildly hilly half marathon in temperatures below 20 degrees. Hip flexors were the only area on my legs that didn't hurt. I got lazy in the middle of my race talking to a couple of triathletes and before I knew it, I had run 2 miles at an 8 minute/mile pace. Since I didn't know how I'd hold up (I've only run 7.9 miles as my longest runs, and only did that twice in the last 4 weeks), I was planning on taking it easy to make sure I finished OK. After those two slow miles, I eased the speed back up, and my 12th mile was in 7:15, my last mile in 7:00. THANKS Power Cranks!

My calves were my limiting factors, followed by my right hamstring getting tight and sore. Quads were a little sore, but no hip flexor discomfort at all...very nice to be able to lift your knees as high as you want to get good turnover for better speed...even at the end of the race.

Dr. Day told me to stay on the PC's and don't bother beating my legs up running as much as I normally would to prepare for this race. He was correct in his advice.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: half marathon after 4 weeks of PC'ing [ktalon] [ In reply to ]
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from a running tech. point of view, the calves being sore first is normal. hamstrings getting tight may subbest (in 95% of the cases) a slight overstriding that forces you to reach and pull instead of hitting the ground just below your center of gravity and pushing.
try to lean forward slightly (running is essentially a sequence of states were you are losing balance and correcting with hitting the groung, pushing off etc...
look at the kenyans for example). it is virtually impossible to overstride when leaning forward.

just some details (as running too is technical...)
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Re: half marathon after 4 weeks of PC'ing [ktalon] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]Dr. Day told me to stay on the PC's and don't bother beating my legs up running as much as I normally would to prepare for this race. He was correct in his advice.[/reply]

Whew!!! congratulations.

I guess another area for controversy is: Just how much running on the road can one give up and still improve when using PC's? AND What is the proper mix of training to optimize running performance?

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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