My thought is that you aren't really going to lose much, if anything, by changing the focus of the workouts so you aren't using the pullbuoy as a crutch. Add some structure to your sessions, work on the technical side and speed, and you'll be a better swimmer in the long term.

You're only 43. You could be doing triathlons for another 20+ years, easily. Do you want to be a "crappy" swimmer, relative to where you would like to be, for another 20 years, or put in a few weeks of dedicated technical work now and in the off-season of years to come, and create some real improvements?

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

In my world (and I'm paraphrasing), kicking is a skill. Flip-turning is a skill. Swimming with a good body position is a skill. EVF is a skill. Can you get by without those skills? Sure. But, the more skills you have, the better off you will be at sport from start to finish. And, to steal from a Chinese proverb: The best time to learn a skill is 20 years ago. The 2nd best time is now.

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I'm not a good swimmer by any means (1:30-1:35/100y) so this is all just my experience and nothing else, but earlier this year after watching my 7 year old doing flip turns for his swim team I knew I had to learn it. Took maybe one session at the pool to get the general feeling down then I slowly incorporated them into my sets and while it's not pretty, I can confidently do them and there is a noticeable time difference between my sets with flip turns vs those with open turns, especially if I want to really push myself. I do limit how much I do them simply because in a 25 yard pool doing a 2500y session I honestly get dizzy from flipping so much.

As for the kicking, again this is just me, but getting flippers on helped me "feel" the kick more and also feel how my body wants to streamline better in the water while going faster. If you haven't used fins before might be worth a shot if there's a set at your pool just to mess around with. I don't think I have a great kick but it's something I'm consciously working to improve as well.

Thanks for the reply Jason.. this is what I was worried about - it feels like (well it has actually) taken me years to get from not being able to swim 25 yards FC to where I am today.. I am paranoid about going backwards..

True.... ok, tomorrow am I will head to the slow lane with a kick board and get to it.

If I come back in a year and am not KQ I will hold all you personally accountable

I am curious, what got you in first place to pretty much only swim with a pull buoy?

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I would say work towards removing the pullbuoy more often as you probably can't get as good of a cardio workout with it always being in there. I am a fan of some kicking, some fast kicking, some social kicking, for both working on some specificity but also helping move your muscles in a greater range of motion in the water which I believe can help your running and keep your range of motion.

I said this about Chrissie Wellington too, but in Lucy's case, and I haven't listened to her speak, but in general I would say teaching adults to swim is far different than learning to swim from the womb. My first few years I did flip turns, but then ran into some respiratory issues when I lived in Chicago in 2009 and I stopped flip turning. Although, I throw one in for occasional good measure, I don't actually see a good reason too. In fact, I see more reasons not to given my own personality that I believe allowed me to get better and faster. Mainly that not flip turning helped me learn to accelerate the first few strokes off the wall to catch swim partners which made me swim harder without thinking about it. I wrote this many moons ago and I have since edited and modified quite a few times as I have continued to evolve open turns vs flip turns but it discusses it in more depth.

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I should just clarify a bit. I don't think it's necessary, at all, to do flip turns (for a triathlete). However, learning them is a valuable skill, just from the POV of getting better awareness of what your body is doing in the water. And they aren't that hard to learn, you can learn the basics of a flip turn in an afternoon. After that, practice them in warmup, and do them to whatever extent you want. I like them because they're faster (so I get swimming again quicker) and easier than an open turn.

I did have a look at Tom's post, the last comment was funny (over half of the Olympians were doing open turns in the 200fly, LOL...) He's not wrong, but it is slanted in one direction.


Kicking I think is important, because having an efficient kick will help drive good body rotation and position in the water. You don't need to do a lot of kicking, but having some in your workouts (use fins if you need to) is a good thing.

That said, your biggest gains are going to be from properly structuring your workouts so you aren't just getting in and swimming straight (as it appears you are doing).

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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Literally as Lucy said "wetsuit will correct my form" lets focus on the pull and other stuff - and it worked to a point but back of my mind I think I am holding myself back now.



Thanks Thomas, I will take a look at your blog.. part of me may well just want to look cool :)



Its intoxicating though isnt it... :)


If only someone had a swim workout of the day in their sig... :)

If only.....

I've actually done a couple of workouts over the last few weeks that I think are worthy of going in that thread. I'll update it sometime later today.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Just been browsing it... I see what you mean about structured vs what I do today.. this looks "fun"

1 x 800 SKPS
2 x 400 pull @ 30s rest - negative split each 400. try to peek at the clock at the 200 turn.
4 x 200 swim * #1 and 3 build, 2 and 4 extend underwaters - at least 2 dolphin kicks off each wall.
8 x 100 swim * descend 1-4
16 x 50 swim ** best average

total - 4000 plus warmdown


I will do that in the morning.

Poldarn,
The flip turn thing - it doesn't matter for what your type of racing (open water triathlon) and your goals. If you took it on I think you'd dig it and it might lead to faster swimming just because of the whole "how do I move through water better" thing that can shave a half a second off your IM times in the long term, but the flip turn isn't essential.

The kicking thing on the other hand - and specific to your approach which you revealed in the quote above - I want to address that.

First and foremost I worry that you are dependent upon the buoy (and the wettie) to stay level in the water. If you stop training with the buoy, and I hope you do, then you have to make sure you keep the body level in the water when it's gone. And do that with balance skills NOT with kick power. The balance skills are tweaking your head position, depth of entry and pressure on your upper torso to keep the hips/legs up. Think of the body as a see-saw on a kids playground; if one end goes down a little (head, arms, chest) the other end comes up (hips, legs). Master that balance sans buoy.

You want to swim faster, cool. I don't want you to think you can throw any random leg action into your swim and have that be the answer.

What I'd like to entice you to pursue is a kick that adds power/speed to your swim in a skillful manner. Skill's been suggested in this thread already and it can be applied here too.

There's a moment that I'm certain you are already using/feeling in your swim and that's what you have built up some potential energy in body through a bit of core rotation (some folks involve hips, some just the torso) and you release that rotation to help drive both your entering/extending arm and your pulling arm. I want you to find the gentle thump of a kick that helps put a little umph behind that system. The kinetic chain that's powering your swim now is prolly just core+arms. I want you to expand that to be kick+core+arms. There is a kick that when timed properly will enhance your swim. You need to find that. Here are a couple of ways of making that discovery: 1) go to the deep end and do a vertical kick (see YouTube for vids if you don't know it). Once you get the hang of it puts your arms across your chest, keep your chin above water for a few seconds and using just your legs rotate your whole body in a snap fashion 45 degrees one way, hold the kick there for a sec, and then 45 degrees the other. Do that a couple of times to discover that you have the ability to power your body's rotation via kick. Then swim an easy length of the pool with a gentler version of that same kick and time the rotation you used vertically to help power your arm switch in the swim. 2) Push off and let the legs drag in a relaxed fashion behind you as you swim a few strokes. Feel how they will naturally separate as the body gently rotates. Then start to anticipate that separation and put a tiny thump into that moment so the separation is one that's being created/driven by the legs.

Finding that kick timing that will help compliment your swim is essential and it might take a while to discover it, but when you do find it you'll be faster.

Ian

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Ian Murray
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I also did flip turns most of my swimming life, even though I was an adult onset swimmer. But if you want update your flip turn blog, there is another good reason to avoid them (avoid doing them, but not avoid learning them) and that is if you have a herniated disc. A few flip turns are no problem, but 3000 yards worth of flip turns and my back does not like it.

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Flip turns are perfect for building core strength, aside from being faster that is one of the main reasons I do them.

You could try doing regular swim sets with a pair of fins rather than the kickboard, or try fins and paddles. Or kick sets with with fins, again more core strength while building kick strength. Just don't get tied to using any one piece of swim gear as a crutch, whether its a pull buoy, fins, paddles, wetsuits. Also, sets with all of the different strokes, even if you aren't using them in a race, can contribute to being faster overall.

Ok.. lots to unpack there - and I think I feel that kinetic energy you mention but yes absolutely all driven from upper body, when I swim my legs job is to try and have pointed feet and stay out of the way and honestly no idea what my hips do.

I will try that drill this evening after my run session and see what I feel.

Really appreciate all the comments everyone.

The best way to become efficient with flip turns is just to decide to do them always going forward. Just make that decision and do it. It will be hard at first. Eventually you will not even think about it. There is also some hypoxic training effect from doing flip turns. You may notice that if you just start doing them all the time.

You do not get much propulsion from kicking, but you will get better body position and a better aerobic workout swimming while kicking. It is nice to be able to turn your kicking on and off during a race.

I also always suggest learning bilateral breathing, and being able to breath exclusively on either side. Those are more great tools to have in your tool box.

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Ditch the pull buoy! It will suck in the short term but it is doing nothing for your racing. You are not racing with a pull buoy between your legs!

I read through Thomas' article and I have to say this is my experience with swimming and flip turns

I can flip turn but do not. I feel my workouts are better without them. When I flip turn I am basically shortening the pool and as a triathlete, I have no reason to do that. Also my open turn has gotten pretty smooth. As my finger tips touch the wall, my arm bends slightly. With a slight push with my arm my body rotates backwards and I am pushing off the wall upside down and rotate after the kick off the wall. I guess the biggest difference is I can get a breath with this method which is one of the arguments against open turns. However, I get unlimited air in open water swimming. I do not have to hold my breath for long periods like I would if I were racing a 100 at a swim meet

Swimmers who flip turn are definitely faster in the pool but are not necessarily swimming faster. Just swimming less yards / meters in the same amount of laps

The other thing I have noticed is that open tuners don't care how others turn but flip turners do care how others turn

The kick comes from the hips, not the feet or lower legs.

how far do you think you are from the wall when you flip? You really aren't swimming any less distance doing a flipturn, unless you glide into the wall, which you shouldn't be doing anyway.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

you haven't see me flip. Judging by the number of times I push against nothing, I'd say I'm about 2 meters from the wall....glide into the wall? Yes, but its feet first.

For me the two beat kick is far more about driving body rotation than propulsion. One option is to swap out the pull buoy for a pair of floatie shorts. This way you get the hip lift similar to a wetsuit or buoy, and can kick.

As for flip turns, they only take a few sessions to learn (the basics at least), but you'll probably be dealing with the hypoxic feeling coming off the wall for 6+ mos. I think they are well worth learning (and your faster pool times using them help provide motivation), but YMMV.

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I can flip turn but do not. I feel my workouts are better without them. When I flip turn I am basically shortening the pool and as a triathlete, I have no reason to do that.
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Flip-turning better mimics the challenges of OWS than does open turning. Your 'shortening the pool' point is not validated as both turns involve a push-ff and a glide. The extra breath taken during an open turn further diverges from OWS as compared to a flip.

Slowman writes about this topic here.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
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