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Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain
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This year will mark my second true season of triathlon. As a disclaimer: I am an age grouper, and very competitive, but see triathlon as a fun hobby-not another 40 hour “job” to pour lots of money before talent. I don’t ever plan on ever being in the front of any pack. However, this year I am planning to do my first half ironman. I purchased a used road bike early last year that I have put some upgrades into to make it comfortable and triathlon friendly, e.g.. aero bars, speedplay pedals, adamo saddle. I actually had to cut my season short though because of knee pain. After therapy, strength training, orthos, etc. I have noticed lately that the pain may not be originating so much from the running, as I had previously thought, but is coming on very strong and suddenly on the bike. After reading some on this forum and other internet research, I have a sneaking suspicion that bike fit may be to blame (cadence is high, so ruled that out). Since triathlon is a HOBBY, I really hesitate to blindly spend half of what I spent on my bike on a fit such as Retul or some of the others out there. That is to say I won’t to protect my knees, as I already had issues prior to triathlon. I am looking for some input as to some fits that are more economical or that maybe I can try at home first, without paying the same price for a lot of fancy tools. If this is asking too much, then what bike fits come highly recommended? Is it possible to pay for a fit now that would work later should I decide to upgrade to a tri bike? I have also read up on the F.I.S.T method. Has anyone had good experience with this? I am willing to do some research, but would just like some guidance on where to start! Thanks!


http://trismashley.blogspot.com
Anything that gets your blood racing is probably worth doing. -Hunter S. Thompson
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [trismashley] [ In reply to ]
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You can start by posting a picture of you on your bike now. Taken from hip high while you are on a trainer with your leg at the bottom of your stroke and another with it at the top.

jaretj
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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I don't mind getting a picture later tonight, but is that going to be more "guesstimating"?


http://trismashley.blogspot.com
Anything that gets your blood racing is probably worth doing. -Hunter S. Thompson
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [trismashley] [ In reply to ]
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I would say that you cannot 100% rule out your running as the source of the knee pain. Tell us more about the knee pain...location, movements that make it worse, etc.. You could also not be stretching enough. You should not pay more than a couple of hundred for a good fit. The fit on a tri bike and a road bike will be totally different.
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [chiefmd] [ In reply to ]
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My question is more- what are specific "good" bike fits like you mentioned that I should look into, rather than what is causing my knee pain. I don't believe my knee pain can be pinpointed on any one thing by descriptions on a forum, as I mentioned I have been to a sports ortho and had MRIs done already. I have noticed a specific, aching pain that comes on only when riding, however, which is why I am interested in finding a good fit. I am just trying to rule things out, and I think a bike fit is the next step in that. I am sure more stretching would help, but I KNOW I need a bike fit! Thanks for the input so far :)


http://trismashley.blogspot.com
Anything that gets your blood racing is probably worth doing. -Hunter S. Thompson
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [trismashley] [ In reply to ]
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I have a protractor right here waiting to measure some angles :)

jaretj
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [trismashley] [ In reply to ]
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Go to the Fitters Directory, find a qualified professional in your area and go get a bike fit.

Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [ABarnes] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you, Ann! I am looking into that now for someone in my area. For what it's worth-I changed and took this pic on break from lunch today, so no I don't usually wear earrings when biking!




http://trismashley.blogspot.com
Anything that gets your blood racing is probably worth doing. -Hunter S. Thompson
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [trismashley] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, dangly earrings are an aero penalty, but one must be properly accessorized for effective cycling.

Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [trismashley] [ In reply to ]
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Pay the bike fitter or pay your PT and suffer in pain and perhaps miss your race.... Your choice... In a lot of cases the expensive bike fit is cheaper than the visits to the doctor. A good bike fitter will work with you to get it right and may or may not involve several visits. But self diagnosis of a bike fit issue or an injury is not good in the long run err llack there of because you are hurt.
Hobby or Pro the same basic steps are needed as entry into the sport err hobby.

2017 Cervelo P2
2017 Cervelo S2
itraininla.com
#itraininla
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [trismashley] [ In reply to ]
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Hip angle at 82°
Knee angle at 137°
Body to shoulder 85°
Elbow 96°

Hip angle is pretty tight. I wouldn't be surprised if you hit your ribs with your legs, especially since you have such a flat back in that photo. That's not bad or anything, you are close to the hip angle I use but just a little tighter. Some like more, some like a little less. I don't think that is your knee problem.

As pictured your Knee angle is 137° and that is too low. You should be 145° to 150°. Now it could be because you are pointing your toe, if that is your natural pedaling motion then you should raise your saddle. Having a saddle too low can increase shearing forces in your knee and may be a source of your trouble.

Body to Shoulder 85° That is just a little tight but what I would think is personal preference. You could either move your saddle back or lengthen the front end if you felt this was uncomfortable. I would tend to sit where I can produce the most power to the cranks and then adjust whatever else to fit that position. A fitter can help you with that better than I can.

Elbow is at 96° which is very normal.

One thing that strikes me as odd is the road bars you have on the bike. You appear to be very small, probably near my size and those bars have a lot of drop to them. You may consider a bar with a shallower drop if you ride in them often. Something like the Bontrager Race VR-S which is shallower and can put your hands is a more comfortable place to grab the brakes.

Hopefully this can help you and if you decide to see a fitter I think they can do something for you.
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [trismashley] [ In reply to ]
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Go see a good qualified fitter. I disagree with the raise your saddle suggestion. It would actually be hard to even make the suggestion without knowing how you pedal the bike. the 145-150 angle is too high (too much extension).

Where are you located? Perhaps the folks on here can help you find a qualified fitter. And, it's all about the fitter, not the tools the fitter choses to use, so don't fall victim to that trap.

Mat Steinmetz

51-SPEEDSHOP.com - instagram - @matsteinmetz - facebook
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [Mat Steinmetz] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the input! Small people have to stick together! I am actually never on the road bars, but I will keep that in mind, should I ever upgrade to a true tri bike and keep this as a trainer :)

As for a fitter-I have been noticing that as I've been researching what's around me this morning. I am in the mid-GA area, so looking at probably a trip to ATL to a shop that can do a fitting on a Saturday or weekend (can't take a day off from the 9-5). I have heard great things about Eddie O'Dea, but he has limited hours it appears, and I have heard is extreeeemely expensive? From the fitter listing on here, all the major tri/bike shops in ATL have at least one fitter, so that certainly makes it overwhelming, although I know I prefer Podium and All3 as far as stores are concerned.


http://trismashley.blogspot.com
Anything that gets your blood racing is probably worth doing. -Hunter S. Thompson
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [trismashley] [ In reply to ]
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A fitter makes sense. I will say that most frequently people with knee pain have set their saddle too low. Personally, I've found that a saddle needs to be set surprisingly high to prevent knee strain. Your saddle seems low in your picture, but I don't want to make any guesses based on one glance.
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [Mat Steinmetz] [ In reply to ]
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Mat Steinmetz wrote:
Go see a good qualified fitter. I disagree with the raise your saddle suggestion. It would actually be hard to even make the suggestion without knowing how you pedal the bike. the 145-150 angle is too high (too much extension).

Where are you located? Perhaps the folks on here can help you find a qualified fitter. And, it's all about the fitter, not the tools the fitter choses to use, so don't fall victim to that trap.

Since it appears you have a lot of fitting experience I would defer to you.

My reference came from this page:
http://www.slowtwitch.com/.../Seat_height_21.html
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [trismashley] [ In reply to ]
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It's possible that your knee pain is caused by you cleat position. Pain at the back of the knee can mean your cleat is to far forward and at the front, too far back. Not always, but worth pursuing. A fitter will help with this, too.
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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I think Dan has changed this over the last several years. You will see the leg extensions mentioned while fitting and the person riding will have zero issues with it...so, I may recommend that they try something a bit lower, but the body will adapt, even if it's not considered "right", but certain standards. I'd probably not try and fix what doesn't appear broken if a rider likes a tall saddle and has zero complaints.

The sweet spot that I like is 38-42 degrees, but am happy with anything from 32-44 degrees depending on the circumstance. I typically measure from center of joint line (as close as I can get)...I've noticed that this tends to be about 2 degrees different than the center of the knee from where Dan measures. So, if I get 42, Dan will probably get 40 based on the difference in landmarks.

Mat Steinmetz

51-SPEEDSHOP.com - instagram - @matsteinmetz - facebook
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Re: Fit suggestions for road bike and knee pain [Mat Steinmetz] [ In reply to ]
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One that i didn't see mentioned was the suitability of your crank length...

IF you cannot achieve the TDC (Top dead center) and BDC (Bottum dead center) target angles it may be because your cranks are too long..
i.e. if when you can power through BDC with stabilty through your hips (no rocking, or hip rotation / compensatory drop etc) that correspeonding saddle height makes your thighs / knees come up too high (and close to your chest / abdomen, then you may be a strong candidate for shorter cranks....

From folks that have been where you are, persevered under remote guidance and then suffered season ending overuse injuries... please reconsider getting a professional fit.
Spending on that instead of some bling bits for your bike is the smartest use of any funds you may have...
5 visits to a physio will be more than a fit sessiona nd you get to keep doing the sport you love...

Best of luck... be smart... i.e. learn from our mistakes.. :)
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