Combine your two choices for the absolute fastest, Zipp disc with HED 3 front, a disc is a disc, but the Zipp is lighter so if you want the fastest that is the combo. If I had to choose between those two choice I would take the HED's, the advantage of the HED 3 over the 404 makes up for the fact that HED's disc is slightly heavier. Just my $.02...

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Portside Athletics Blog

i remember j cobb saying that the 404 is as fast as the h3(the 404 was even 0.00001? sec faster on 9 of the 10 courses), and also that the 404 handles better.

why not go for the 999s, the Zipp disc with an 808 front....speedy

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Trizilla...My local bike shop a few thousand Ks away


Speed Hurts ...How fast do you want to go

Tough question to answer. Depends a lot on your personal abilities. If you're weak on the hills, may want to go with the lightest combo. If you're weak in the pocket book (like I am), you may want to go with the HEDs. "Fastest" is a hard term because you have to consider aerodynamics and weight. Obviously, both will have good aerodynamics, but the slight advantage goes to the HED/HED combo. I disagree with the previous statement that a disc is a disc. I was able to dig up independent wind tunnel data on discs a while ago (can't remember where I got it, sorry), but the HED disc has less drag than the Zipp. But, the 404 does handle much better than the HED3 on the front in windy conditions, especially if it's gusty, and is only slightly less aero (possibly equal to the HED3). If you live in a place with gusting winds, the HED3 will be harder to control. And I think anyone who runs an 808 on the front wheel is absolutely crazy. Unless you live in an area with 5 mph winds max, you run a good chance of having the front wheel swept out on an 808. If you've got good skills, may not be a problem, but just one lapse in concentration could ruin a race.

Just go with the set that provides you with the best balance of aero, weight, and budget for whatever your conditions are. Sorry there isn't a more definitive answer.

What kind of bike are you putting them on?
That is the important question.

Folks

You can't go wrong with a Renn rear disc.

the 575 is tremendous value - and even the lightest in the range (Madiera) is still awesome value at only $750 brand new

I personally have a Renn on the rear and a Hed H3 on the front

For what you ask the HED combo will be faster due to the front being faster. The disks are pretty much a wash.



Styrrell

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Styrrell

I'm hopefully putting them on a cervelo p3c.

On anything but an uphill TT, aero beats weight every time (all other things, like handling, being equal).

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Zipps then.

Don't forget about hubs, though. The HED hub is nowhere near as good as the Zipp. I'd be more willing overlook the weight of the HED if not for that difference.

And yes, as someone else mentioned, a lenticular disc(HED) is notably faster, especially in high crosswinds. But with the weight and worse hub design of a HED, I think the Zipp is the best choice. There is a reason you didn't see a HED disc under the USPS bikes...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I use the "Lance" set up :-)

HED 3 Carbon front, disc rear for flat to rolling

HED 3 carbon front & rear for rolling to hilly

A buddy of mine & I compete in the same age group & we are very well matched. There's only a matter of seconds between us at the finish. We ride the same bike (Blue Competition T-12) & for one event (Niagara) I switched from spoked wheels (low spoke count) to H3 carbons front & rear. At the event I got the 2nd fastest bike split & put a minute & 8 seconds on over him in the 25k bike leg. It might not seem like a lot, but when you consider we are normally seperated by less than 10 seconds, it was a big difference. Following the event, we had a gentleman's agreement to use only spoked wheels for subsequent races. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been fun. In case you are wondering, after going back to spoked wheels, our times became close again. My hope is that he saves his pennies & we can both ride H3c's next year. Not because they're faster, mostly because they look fast.

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Paul "Speedy" Gonsalves
http://www.rollingthundercanada.com
RollingThunderCanada

Canadian distributor for HED Cycling, Blue Competition, Akona Biospeed & Aerus Composites

My experience is that H3 handles worse in crosswind then Zipps 808s, so you are more crazy running a H3 in front then 808's in windy conditions. Just look at both wheels and I think you can figure it out without even testing it. Also, agree about the Hub thing, zipp seams more put together. H3 versus 404 in crosswind is not a comparison at all, 404 is far better.

Speed, H3 is fast, can not tell if there is a major difference between set of H3s versus 808s.

Zip Z series Disk and a Z8 front (they make a Z8 right??)

These are Ceramic bearing superlight versions of the disk and 808 front. Bar none probably the fastest out there if you can handle the front in the wind. $$$$$$$$ so maybe a regular 999 setup would be better.

Some might say a Mavic IO front but there is no braking surface.

Hell, any disk and deep front is probably plenty fast.

O.K.

What about a HED3 in the front and a CH Areo Wheel cover over a Ksyrium Sl on the back ???

Or am I on crack ?

What do you think about the Hed Alps (front)? Same Hub as the disk & H3?

Thanks

The Hed Alps front and rear use a different hub than the H3. It is the "Sonic" hub, not sure who makes it. The Hed 3 front hub is not so bad, it is just two sealed cartridge bearings, but without dust covers, on the outside of the hub. It is the rear hub on the disc and H3 (same for both) that is not so good. It uses a cup/cone arrangement, which is not as good as the all-catridge arrangement on the Zipp & Renn (and also, I believe, Mavic Comete & Campy Ghibli). I know of several people who have had the hub break down on them, and generally it is not that smooth. The Hed Alps rear, is a different design, and I believe it uses all cartridge bearings, though I cannot find an exploded diagram to confirm. While it is certainly not one of the best hubs in the business, it is not a better design than the disc/H3.

It is worth noting that HED spec'ed aftermarket (American Classics) when they reintroduced the HED Stinger last season. Just something to think about. The AmClassic hub is good, but it also has had a major recall for certain years.

The Zipp hubs (made by Zipp) and Reynolds hubs (made by White Industries) are among the best you can buy. Mavic hubs are also outstanding.

If I was going to run a HED wheel, I'd use the H3 (carbon or aluminum) and something else in the back. But that being said, I'd rather run something else.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Hi Jordan,

I'm always keen to learn & hopefully you can help me? What do you mean by "the HED hub is nowhere as good as ZIPP"?

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Paul "Speedy" Gonsalves
http://www.rollingthundercanada.com
RollingThunderCanada

Canadian distributor for HED Cycling, Blue Competition, Akona Biospeed & Aerus Composites

I'll definitely agree with Jordan about the hub issue (be it big or small to YOU). I used to race on a pair of H3s, currently have Zipp 404s, train on Reynolds Alta Race (aluminum version but same hub as the Stratus), and also train on the road bike with some Ksyrium SSC SLs.

The Zipp Hubs are by far the smoothest, second (surprisingly) by the Mavics (and my Ksyriums have over 10K miles on them). The white industry hubs (Reynolds) seem pretty prouty stout (rear spindle), but are not as smooth as I expected them to be (and they are new). The HED hubs were noticeably not as smooth for smooth reason. Wheels were pretty durable though.

I rotated wheels/bikes, riding, spinning etc. wasting (so to speak) an entire Saturday once trying to decipher this for myself. The Zipps were hands down the winner (to me), with the HEDs hands down last - The Reynolds and Mavics about the same (but the white rear hub is LOUD while the Mavic is pretty quiet, even with all those miles).

For what it's worth...

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

On the Hed 3 & Disc, which is what we are talking primarily about here, the drive side bearing is a cup and cone arrangement. Cup & cones are popular, because they are less dependent on precise machining when seating everything. In the Zipp (and Renn) hub, all of the bearings are cartridge bearings, which means that the machining tolerances must be much tighter in order for everthing to seat properly.

Cup & cone bearings are popular in some cases because they can be serviced (and you see these on the XT/XTR hubs, probably because MTB'ers rebuild their hubs quite regularly), whereas a cartridge bearing cannot. However, you run a greater risk of grit getting into the bearing, since it is not sealed, whereas most cartridge bearings used in bicycle hubs are sealed. Cup & cone bearings also can have less drag (assuming everything is machined properly and fits together correctly), since the seals in a bearing will always add the drag, sometimes considerably.

In general, Hed wheels are not known for having high quality hubs, and this has been my own experience, and also that of several other riders I know. If you were to buy a Hed 3 or Hed disc, I would recommend that you find a shop that is experienced in servicing bearings, and have your rear hub checked periodically.

All issues of bearing choices aside, machining tolerances also play a large role, and Zipp is certainly among the leaders in the industry in this department.

I'm still hunting for a diagram on the Hed 3 rear hub, since that would tell me a lot more about the exact construction. If all else fails, I'll dismantle a friends (shhhhhh) and tell you what I find.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

We dont care what you think about wheels...we want to know if you are ready to race this weekend!

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

The Hed3 front wheel might be slightly faster aerodynamically, but it actually takes more watts to spin because of the turbulance the big spokes create by going through the fork blades. However, even with the weight difference, the Hed disc is faster according to this website, because of its lenticular shape, instead of Zipp's flat disc. This test was done before dimples were added to Zipp's wheels.

Here's a link to the results of these tests:
http://www.bsn.com/cycling/WheelAerodynamics.html

It's the test that was conducted by Cycling Plus at the University of Bath. It's the second white chart.

Usually the wheels under the fastest rider.

[reply][reply]
What is faster, a Zipp 404 front wheel with a Zipp 909 disk or a HED 3 spoke with a HED disk on a rolling terrain course? [/reply]

Usually the wheels under the fastest rider.[/reply]

Good point. I may try to pick one of them up on e-bay.